SQ and rap?

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

dbl post

 

[Ignatowski 5,000+ posts]

SQ and Rap,thats funny............

Its all bass,computergenrated bass - its not even real bass,nor are the characters they conjure up to sell this crap to kids. Get some musical instruments played by the artist and then maybe you can call it music .

 

[Decado 10+ year member]

Well, if you are just gonna circle the wagons and fall back on your opinion that every day rap has 'good SQ', Im not sure what we have to debate. I can already see this diuscussion turning to the 'SQ is subjective!' arguement Ive grown far too weary of. If you want to think rap is highly detailed music with an emphasis on SQ, clarity, etc... knock yourself out. But you are only fooling yourself.
Rap is stereotyped as 'the opposite' of SQ (not really, but how the OP worded it) because frankly, the stereotype fits. If you cant handle that, I suggest you come to terms with it. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. I simply wont agree to rappers installing grossly overexagerrated sub stages while retaining the stock front stage, or possiby the minimalisitc dash speaker upgrade, while bumping to an 'artist' talking about smacking his ho's *** or putting a cap in a cop's ***, all the while expecting your just rights in the SQ world and praise the genre for its SQ features.

Rap = opposite of SQ because that's exactly what its fans demand.

What, I'm circling the wagons because I won't bend to your will and accept your opinion? Once again, rap isn't the best when it comes to SQ but it can sound pretty good. I'm not saying all rap has an emphasis on SQ, clarity, etc but there is rap that does emphasize this. This has nothing to do with the subjectivity of SQ, I'm not a fool. I understand the fact that classical music or techno music is pretty much the best when it comes to SQ but I'm not going to resign to the statement that all rap has horrible SQ, because it doesn't.

Another thing, just because something has alot of bass doesn't mean that it can't have good SQ. It can have nice sounding bass even though it's loud as hell. Bass doesn't run the gamot of sound either. There's midbass, midrange, and treble all of which contribute to the SQ of a song.

Lastly, this is for exelerater. So what, it's computer generated bass, that means absolutely nothing. Please tell me how fake bass has lesser SQ than real bass. Wouldn't you think that fake bass, with a good enough computer making it, would sound better than real bass since you're eliminating the whole microphone step?

 

[Ignatowski 5,000+ posts]

real bass=bass drum,usually played by musican with talent (hopefully)

fake bass=digitally generated from computer by some quasi talented

nimrod. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Decado 10+ year member]

real bass=bass drum,usually played by musican with talent (hopefully)fake bass=digitally generated from computer by some quasi talented

nimrod. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I realize how each is made, you still didn't answer my question though.

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

What, I'm circling the wagons because I won't bend to your will and accept your opinion? Once again, rap isn't the best when it comes to SQ but it can sound pretty good. I'm not saying all rap has an emphasis on SQ, clarity, etc but there is rap that does emphasize this. This has nothing to do with the subjectivity of SQ, I'm not a fool. I understand the fact that classical music or techno music is pretty much the best when it comes to SQ but I'm not going to resign to the statement that all rap has horrible SQ, because it doesn't.
Another thing, just because something has alot of bass doesn't mean that it can't have good SQ. It can have nice sounding bass even though it's loud as hell. Bass doesn't run the gamot of sound either. There's midbass, midrange, and treble all of which contribute to the SQ of a song.

Lastly, this is for exelerater. So what, it's computer generated bass, that means absolutely nothing. Please tell me how fake bass has lesser SQ than real bass. Wouldn't you think that fake bass, with a good enough computer making it, would sound better than real bass since you're eliminating the whole microphone step?

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with this, but what the hell...

Your argument is fallacious. First of all, you are saying you don't accept his "opinion" even though it is not an opinion, it is logic. Second of all, you are creating arguments to counter an argument that is not even being made, nothing you just said pertains to what Audioholic was saying, in fact you completely ignored it.

You can never win in an argument when the teams aren't playing by the rules. Feel free to think that means you won the argument though, if it makes you happy.

edit: I'm not trying to call you an idiot here. You are pretty well spoken, especially compared to most of this forum. If you want to put that mind to better use, go do some research on logic and logical fallacies so that you can better support your opinion when arguing with other well spoken people.

 

[B_Campbell 10+ year member]

I realize how each is made, you still didn't answer my question though.

because he is a dumbass

 

[TIGERFOR2 10+ year member]

that songs new, cant really expect it to be brought up. I just heard it for the first time a couple days ago.
Now to say rap has no lyrics, come on now. Thats a bold statement. Like me saying there no good guitar players because the friends that i know play and **** at it.

You cant judge a genre as a whole just because shitty rap is all that sells.

Niggz89, im not saying all rap **** just 99% of the stuff they play on the radio stations a 1,000 times a day. I listen to hip hop 90% of the time. Just older stuff from Jay-Z, Nas, Das Efx, Tupac, EPMD, Rakim, Kool G Rap, older DMX, Lox. Etc. You cant tell me Jeezy, Yin Yang Twin, PauL Wall, Lil Scrappy, Birdman, etc are lyrical! If youre looking for good SQ in rap find some DJ Premier/Gange Star and Pete Rock songs. Niggz I may just be stuck in the 70's 80's and 90's.

 

[TIGERFOR2 10+ year member]

IF your into SQ listen to Sade. The music in CHERISH is a SQ dream.

 

[Ignatowski 5,000+ posts]

because he is a dumbass

takes one to know one ****............

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fro.gif.c695f1f814b01c4ad99fe7f8cccadd29.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

What, I'm circling the wagons because I won't bend to your will and accept your opinion? Once again, rap isn't the best when it comes to SQ but it can sound pretty good. I'm not saying all rap has an emphasis on SQ, clarity, etc but there is rap that does emphasize this. This has nothing to do with the subjectivity of SQ, I'm not a fool. I understand the fact that classical music or techno music is pretty much the best when it comes to SQ but I'm not going to resign to the statement that all rap has horrible SQ, because it doesn't.
Another thing, just because something has alot of bass doesn't mean that it can't have good SQ. It can have nice sounding bass even though it's loud as hell. Bass doesn't run the gamot of sound either. There's midbass, midrange, and treble all of which contribute to the SQ of a song.

Lastly, this is for exelerater. So what, it's computer generated bass, that means absolutely nothing. Please tell me how fake bass has lesser SQ than real bass. Wouldn't you think that fake bass, with a good enough computer making it, would sound better than real bass since you're eliminating the whole microphone step?

Bend to my will? Are you joking? How many times in this thread have I said I 1) like alot of rap, 2) listen to alot of rap, and 3) believe there is *some* good sounding, well recorded and balanced 'rap' music out there... yet you want to portray me as trying to somehow force you to see things my way. So far as Im concerned, Ive conceded alot of points to you, yet you maintain a brick wall attitude, base if off your opinion of rap music, and then paint me in a light that looks like Im being stubborn and bullyish. Whatever.
I'll ask you again:

Can you honestly say you could see a professional tuner using [generic] rap to fine tune a SQ car before an event? Not some obscure rapper with a song that really doesn't fit the genre (heavy bass), your average every day rap song. If not, I dont see why we are having this debate.

Your reply is someting to the effect of you aren't talking about setting up your SQ car with rap music... this is a car audio forum and this debate (on the car audio forum) is about "SQ" and rap music. On a car audio board, in a thread debating the SQ qualities of the rap music genre, I think its very fair to ask why a person who argues the SQ benefits of rap wouldn't also use rap to fine tune his SQ setup before a big event. Why wouldn't you? Maybe because that would admit you realize this debate is bigger than your opinion that *some* rap sounds *pretty good*. This debate has not been centered on Decado's opinion of what sounds *good*... its been centered around how rap fits, or does not fit, into the realm of 'SQ' in car (or I suppose home) audio.

Rap music leans towards heavy bass output. No denying that, stop trying with your obscure rappers. You ask who cares if its artifically made bass? I care. How is anyone suppose to know what that bass is suppose to sound like? Someone beating a bass drum is a 100% different situation. The sound is predictable and recognizable. And, it has complexity, starting off with the initial tap noise as the stick impacts the drum, then moving on to the resonance from the drum itself (including decay). Now, that is complexity in a bass note, with cues to hang from when tweaking your subbass. Where are any of these cues in a bass note that is merely someone hitting a key on a syntesizer which correspondingly emits a flat, generally monotone subbass note? Rap fans hear a bass line which changes pitch a few times and all the sudden they think they have complex and intricate bass. Im underwhelmed.

Yes, Im well aware you will ignore all that and move back to the arguement that you aren't discussing setting up a SQ system with rap, merely debating that rap can sound good. Dude, I'll give you that... that your opinion that rap *can* sound good is justifiable. Congrats. But the rest of us were discussing how rap characterisitcs do or do not fit into the 'SQ' realm in audio reproduction.

I said you are circling the wagons because its obvious you are falling back on an arguement you can simply boil down to 'personal opinion'. Trying to take the discussion from actual debate about acoustical cues, advanatges, disadvantages, difference between it and other genres (real, tangible ideas) and degrade it into opinions about what everyone 'likes' more or thinks sounds 'good'. That is circling the wagons.

Buffalohed, thanks for the nice words.

Cheers guys.

 

[Decado 10+ year member]

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with this, but what the hell...
Your argument is fallacious. First of all, you are saying you don't accept his "opinion" even though it is not an opinion, it is logic. Second of all, you are creating arguments to counter an argument that is not even being made, nothing you just said pertains to what Audioholic was saying, in fact you completely ignored it.

You can never win in an argument when the teams aren't playing by the rules. Feel free to think that means you won the argument though, if it makes you happy.

edit: I'm not trying to call you an idiot here. You are pretty well spoken, especially compared to most of this forum. If you want to put that mind to better use, go do some research on logic and logical fallacies so that you can better support your opinion when arguing with other well spoken people.

First, it is an opinion formed by logic there is no absolute when you're talking about a debatable subject like this. And when was I creating arguments to counter an argument that wasn't being made? I don't believe I won the argument either, I just don't agree with some of what he's saying.

Lol, ya I took a critical thinking class where we learned all about logic and logical fallacies and arguments and I fail to see where I made a logical fallacy here, but maybe I'm forgetting something. Either way, thanks for the nice words.

Bend to my will? Are you joking? How many times in this thread have I said I 1) like alot of rap, 2) listen to alot of rap, and 3) believe there is *some* good sounding, well recorded and balanced 'rap' music out there... yet you want to portray me as trying to somehow force you to see things my way. So far as Im concerned, Ive conceded alot of points to you, yet you maintain a brick wall attitude, base if off your opinion of rap music, and then paint me in a light that looks like Im being stubborn and bullyish. Whatever.
I'll ask you again:

Can you honestly say you could see a professional tuner using [generic] rap to fine tune a SQ car before an event? Not some obscure rapper with a song that really doesn't fit the genre (heavy bass), your average every day rap song. If not, I dont see why we are having this debate.

Your reply is someting to the effect of you aren't talking about setting up your SQ car with rap music... this is a car audio forum and this debate (on the car audio forum) is about "SQ" and rap music. On a car audio board, in a thread debating the SQ qualities of the rap music genre, I think its very fair to ask why a person who argues the SQ benefits of rap wouldn't also use rap to fine tune his SQ setup before a big event. Why wouldn't you? Maybe because that would admit you realize this debate is bigger than your opinion that *some* rap sounds *pretty good*. This debate has not been centered on Decado's opinion of what sounds *good*... its been centered around how rap fits, or does not fit, into the realm of 'SQ' in car (or I suppose home) audio.

Rap music leans towards heavy bass output. No denying that, stop trying with your obscure rappers. You ask who cares if its artifically made bass? I care. How is anyone suppose to know what that bass is suppose to sound like? Someone beating a bass drum is a 100% different situation. The sound is predictable and recognizable. And, it has complexity, starting off with the initial tap noise as the stick impacts the drum, then moving on to the resonance from the drum itself (including decay). Now, that is complexity in a bass note, with cues to hang from when tweaking your subbass. Where are any of these cues in a bass note that is merely someone hitting a key on a syntesizer which correspondingly emits a flat, generally monotone subbass note? Rap fans hear a bass line which changes pitch a few times and all the sudden they think they have complex and intricate bass. Im underwhelmed.

Yes, Im well aware you will ignore all that and move back to the arguement that you aren't discussing setting up a SQ system with rap, merely debating that rap can sound good. Dude, I'll give you that... that your opinion that rap *can* sound good is justifiable. Congrats. But the rest of us were discussing how rap characterisitcs do or do not fit into the 'SQ' realm in audio reproduction.

I said you are circling the wagons because its obvious you are falling back on an arguement you can simply boil down to 'personal opinion'. Trying to take the discussion from actual debate about acoustical cues, advanatges, disadvantages, difference between it and other genres (real, tangible ideas) and degrade it into opinions about what everyone 'likes' more or thinks sounds 'good'. That is circling the wagons.

Buffalohed, thanks for the nice words.

Cheers guys.

Well, first I want to say I'm not trying to be a dick I just may have sounded like it. What I got from your last post was that you were trying to force your opinion, I guess I misunderstood you and took offense.

So, when you say generic rap what does that even mean? Are you trying to say plain sounding, popular rap, just some random rap song or what because it's not making sense to me. And with this whole obscure rapper thing I have no idea what you're talking about, the only time I was talking about obscure rappers was back on the lyrical argument. But no I couldn't see a professional tuner using rap to tune his system, I already agreed that it would be a stupid idea. Rap can still fit into the SQ world without being part of a competition or tuning of a system. Just because you shouldn't tune your system with rap doesn't mean that it can't still have good SQ afterwards. No it doesn't have good enough SQ to be tuning-worthy but it can still sound great. I was simply arguing that rap has it's place in SQ, albeit a small one.

And what the hell, I never said this debate was centered around my opinion and I wasn't trying to make the end-all opinion. The way it sounded to me was that you were trying to say that rap doesn't fit into the realm of SQ at all but I was just trying to say that it does fit to a point. This isn't an all or nothing debate...

Once again with the obscure rapper...why are you clinging on to that? So, you do know that they have artificial drum sets that hook into the computer so you can easily make a very real sounding but cleaner bass note right? Of course there's an assload of rap that that has very simple bass notes but there's a good amount with nice clean real sounding bass that's more than just changing pitch a few times, and it's not just some obscure rap.

My opinion that rap can have good SQ is my opinion of how it fits into the realm of SQ, don't get it confused. In this situation, an opinion is more than just an unsubstantiated personal view, it's your personal conclusion put together by logic (take a medical opinion for example, this is the same type of thing as what I'm trying to say here). My point wasn't to say what I liked or didn't like it was to put forth my logical opinion, which is essentially what everyone who's posted in this thread has done... Once again, I'm not trying to sound aggressive or a stone wall of forcing my opinion even though I may come off that way.

 

[Omarvelous 10+ year member]

"rap can have good SQ"

That's more like an indisputable fact.....

Opinion would be more like "I think this rap song has good SQ"

I just jumped on the end of this, only read last 2 post....

I just think u 2 like to type! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

 

[Hundreth 10+ year member]

The catch is that plenty of rappers sample sounds that actually do come from quality recordings with real instruments.

While its easier to make most rap sound good than other genres, SQ systems do make rap sound better as well.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

First, it is an opinion formed by logic there is no absolute when you're talking about a debatable subject like this. And when was I creating arguments to counter an argument that wasn't being made? I don't believe I won the argument either, I just don't agree with some of what he's saying.
Lol, ya I took a critical thinking class where we learned all about logic and logical fallacies and arguments and I fail to see where I made a logical fallacy here, but maybe I'm forgetting something. Either way, thanks for the nice words.

Well, first I want to say I'm not trying to be a dick I just may have sounded like it. What I got from your last post was that you were trying to force your opinion, I guess I misunderstood you and took offense.

So, when you say generic rap what does that even mean? Are you trying to say plain sounding, popular rap, just some random rap song or what because it's not making sense to me. And with this whole obscure rapper thing I have no idea what you're talking about, the only time I was talking about obscure rappers was back on the lyrical argument. But no I couldn't see a professional tuner using rap to tune his system, I already agreed that it would be a stupid idea. Rap can still fit into the SQ world without being part of a competition or tuning of a system. Just because you shouldn't tune your system with rap doesn't mean that it can't still have good SQ afterwards. No it doesn't have good enough SQ to be tuning-worthy but it can still sound great. I was simply arguing that rap has it's place in SQ, albeit a small one.

And what the hell, I never said this debate was centered around my opinion and I wasn't trying to make the end-all opinion. The way it sounded to me was that you were trying to say that rap doesn't fit into the realm of SQ at all but I was just trying to say that it does fit to a point. This isn't an all or nothing debate...

Once again with the obscure rapper...why are you clinging on to that? So, you do know that they have artificial drum sets that hook into the computer so you can easily make a very real sounding but cleaner bass note right? Of course there's an assload of rap that that has very simple bass notes but there's a good amount with nice clean real sounding bass that's more than just changing pitch a few times, and it's not just some obscure rap.

My opinion that rap can have good SQ is my opinion of how it fits into the realm of SQ, don't get it confused. In this situation, an opinion is more than just an unsubstantiated personal view, it's your personal conclusion put together by logic (take a medical opinion for example, this is the same type of thing as what I'm trying to say here). My point wasn't to say what I liked or didn't like it was to put forth my logical opinion, which is essentially what everyone who's posted in this thread has done... Once again, I'm not trying to sound aggressive or a stone wall of forcing my opinion even though I may come off that way.

Then this could have been ended by you simply ansering my question earlier about if you wouldn't use rap to tune a system, why are we debating further? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif If you are saying has its place in the SQ world because a superior sounding system will make rap sound better, well Ive never debated that point.

I have been using the term 'generic rapper' because every time I (or someone else) mentions the inherant traits found in common rap, its been met with arguement there are rappers out there that dont follow the norms. You say that only pertained to lyrics, it seems that idea has pertained to the bass beat as well (see arguement about different era's of rap a few pages back). So to combat that on-going arguement in this thread, Ive started labeling my points with the term 'generic rapper' (or equiv) so as to avoid that whole mess. But even that, it seems, is met with debate as well. I ask you, how do I pose a point that pertains to rap, the music genre in general, or the popular artists who form its characteristics, without being met with debate over my wording, or my motives?

I wasn't suggesting you are self-centered and think your opinion is the end-all answer. I was suggesting you were moving the debate into that direction where it would boil down to the 'SQ is subjective' arguement.

"Of course there's an assload of rap that that has very simple bass notes but there's a good amount with nice clean real sounding bass that's more than just changing pitch a few times, and it's not just some obscure rap."

I thought we'd already resolved that the most popular rap (top-40 as you put it) is generally the heavy, simple bass? People on my side of this discussion have been called ignorant because we've only been exposed to the top-40 'crap' people play around us. Guess what, that majority rules thing also applies to what defines the music genre.

Lastly, no offense meant to you Decado. Im not trying to sound liek a dick either. We have a differnece of opinion on this issue, nothing further. If I come across overly ahole'ish, my apologies as well.

While its easier to make most rap sound good than other genres, SQ systems do make rap sound better as well.

Well said.