prison reform

[Corsica 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant You live in a dream world.. While I agree that 'most' people in this country have a desk in a room with books (which in poorer neighborhoods might be decades old and barely useable) and a teacher (do you have ANY idea how EASY it is to be a teacher, or how many teachers are actaully pretty stupid? Then take into account that some (if not most) teachers in uber-poor schools are there because they **** as teachers.

 

 

Savant, u know I got a ton of respect for ya and ur strong view points but were u beaten by a 0/2 awg wire???? EASY to become a teacher in America????? Dude did u ever have a freind or relative who became one??? I have one, in my mother. She has double certification, (english and elemntary education) and earns jack shit for a salary. Teachers aren't stupid, the standards change for what they have to teach and what they learned in college may not be what needs to be taught now. Without having "refresher" courses, and *****y little kids teachers may not be stupid but rather just not teaching to the best of their abilities. I mean come on, out of all of use how many of us can say we give 110% EVERY day we go to work?? I know I sure as **** don't.

 

J

 

[nswartley 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Corsica Savant, u know I got a ton of respect for ya and ur strong view points but were u beaten by a 0/2 awg wire???? EASY to become a teacher in America????? Dude did u ever have a freind or relative who became one??? I have one, in my mother. She has double certification, (english and elemntary education) and earns jack shit for a salary. Teachers aren't stupid, the standards change for what they have to teach and what they learned in college may not be what needs to be taught now. Without having "refresher" courses, and *****y little kids teachers may not be stupid but rather just not teaching to the best of their abilities. I mean come on, out of all of use how many of us can say we give 110% EVERY day we go to work?? I know I sure as **** don't.

 

J

yea seriously bro......teachers are perhaps the most under appreciated people in the US...they dont make much...bad hours.....and here in CA a lot are getting fired b/c of budget cuts

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Well, in the city (NY), they are absolutely desparate for teachers, they would probably hire me right now...but the pay is horrible. Out on the Island, its a different story...

EDIT: 3's across the board!!! (3333)//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Corsica Savant, u know I got a ton of respect for ya and ur strong view points but were u beaten by a 0/2 awg wire???? EASY to become a teacher in America????? Dude did u ever have a freind or relative who became one??? I have one, in my mother. She has double certification, (english and elemntary education) and earns jack shit for a salary. Teachers aren't stupid, the standards change for what they have to teach and what they learned in college may not be what needs to be taught now. Without having "refresher" courses, and *****y little kids teachers may not be stupid but rather just not teaching to the best of their abilities. I mean come on, out of all of use how many of us can say we give 110% EVERY day we go to work?? I know I sure as **** don't.

 

J

Actually, YES.. I have relative(s) that became teachers, and I personally don't think that ***** is worth the rubber she broke out of to become a living being.. I'm NOT saying that all teachers are shitty.. I've have MANY that were great teachers and wonderful people, but in the world of acedemics and 'certifications', teachers are on the LOWEST of the scale.. you have to work a LOT harder and know a LOT more to be a nurse, and that's only 1/2 way across the academic scale.. Teaching is a LIBERAL ARTS major.. the EASIEST to get, not like a hard science like Math or Physics or Biology or Computer Science.. I submit that I know SEVERAL people who became teachers.. they are pretty much stupid and VERY disfunctional.. they bring that to the class room..

Again, there are MANY decent teachers out there, but it's not hard to become a teacher.. are they underappriciated? YES.. I think they are.. why? because it's too damm easy to become a teacher in our society (for grade/middle/high school)..

I agree that teachers should be treated with greater respect in our society, but it won't happen when the average idiot on the street can become certified (please do NOT think I'm commenting on your mother, she may well be a very smart woman and great teacher, there are many..).. Unless society decides that education and school is more than just a day care for kids 6 - 18, then we are destined to have a shitty educational (babysitting) system..

Virtually ALL places are desperate for teachers.. why? cause even the idiots that get certificates don't want to work in the conditions that 'average america' has for schools.. yet, the argument is that "every kid has a desk and books".. again, I say bullshit..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW Actually Savant I come from the poorest part of America and was raised in a house with a tarpaper roof. We had an outhouse until I was 12.

Just how old are you? If you are under 50, then I submit that you lived in a TOTALLY ***-backward community.. which would in LARGE explain your situation (oh.. wait, I'm not allowed to propose that where you grew up had anything to do with where you might be headed)..

The difference between you and I is that I can face what caused my problems while you insist on believing in some big business boogie man who victimizes us all.

Pardon.. I never said or implied that we are 'all' victimized by some boogie man to such an extent that we are 'all' going to get fukked.. I said that it's a requirement of the boogie man that 'some' people fall into that boat..

As a youth I was victimized by myself and people like you who every time I was in trouble as a minor would convince me that the man was at fault and not me.

You really don't know me at all then.. I wouldn't try to convince you that you had no ability to change where you were headed, nor would I imply that you 'couldnt help it'.. I would try to show you 'why' you where you were, and try to help you understand that you don't have to let that govern your life.. I'm FAR from the crying Liberals you would try to lump me with.. While I have a VERY clear understanding of what's going on in our society and know EXACTLY what causes these greifs, I would in NO way try to 'justify' to someone in trouble a scape goat, but would try to educate them to what is their bane.. and try to help them overcome that.. and become a better person DESPITE what is happening to them..

Mine is a tough love message and I work with troubled youth regularly. I waljk the walk instead of talking the talk.

Tough love is one thing, telling all people that get shit on that it's their own fault is another..

I did not use the GI bill for school. I was a reservist and worked my way through.

Why not? You put your life on the line for the shitbags in this country and don't bother to utilize resources at your disposal?.. I don't get that.. maybe you aren't as bright as I thought you were..

My sentence was served in a county jail with a dirt floor, no heat or AC much less TV. My statement was shorter and harder sentences not total hell as you said. Please quote me at will but have the intellectual integrity to quote me directly and not with a twisted interpretation of what you WISH I had said.

Perhaps if you had bothered to use your life experience to elaborate on things people wouldn't have to make presumtions.. It has NOTHING to do with what I WISH had been true, it has to do with your piss poor ability to communicate your thoughts.. If your intent was to 'show you served a sentance in a shitty environment and that helped motivate you' then you should have said that.. not just said 'I got a pot convo at 18'.. that doesn't help anyone.. Do you have ANY idea how many people in this country get 'convicted' of a crime but don't serve a sentance? By the by, how long did you spend in that shitty jail? Did you have a cell mate? Did you get to exercise? watch TV?.. were you ***** or beaten in there? Jail and "prison" are quite a bit different..

My expungement took 3 attempts as I had to prove that I had rehabilitated myself.

Glad to hear you were able to do something about yours.. I was told to bugger off until some 'business' showed conceren.. Course, I could appeal that with every new governer, but why? What would be the point? What would I gain from it? not damm much.. and the 'average' joe on the street with a conviction isn't going to get an expungment.. I mean, think about it.. if you could get one without a lot of hard work and potentially a lot of money, no one would care if they got convicted of a crime anyway.. they could just get it cleaned up... Just because you had ONE thing on your record, and something that (as I pointed out before) isn't a 'big' deal to society doesn't mean that the 10's of thousands of ex-cons could get their records cleared on their first offense and have a clean start.. yours, I would argue, is the exception.. by far..

If one takes the easy way out at every turn in life then failure is assured.

I have NO idea what you are talking about here.. living in the streets and being 1/2 starved and not having any of life's nicities is NOT the easy way out.. these people (the criminal element we are pretty much talking about) have it BETTER in prison then they did before prison.. that's THE PROBLEM.. When you get 3 meals a day and HEATED places to sleep, sometimes thats a LOT better than sleeping on a bench and eating what you can steal.. Again, I submit that you either have no clue or have forgotten what it's like to have nothing (at "6" figures a year, you have a pretty friggn nice life.. if you don't, then again.. you are a moron)..

My education in sociology comes from the school of hard knocks and reality and from there my friend I have a PhD.

Are you trying to tell me you consider yourself a "PhD" in Sociology because you had a shitty life???? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Get a clue.. Just because you have been in a shitty place doesn't mean you have ANY understaning of the cause or the effects.. The first time I read that I thought you were implying you achived a PhD despite your 'life experiences' and partly because of your 'understanding of sociology'.. but the more I read the more I doubt you have a PhD.. especially in Sociology, Psycology, Social Work, or ANY HUMAN relations/understanding/compassion type school of thought..

I will not stoop to your level of calling names of everyone who disagrees and I will trust each forum member to decide whether they feel you, I, or anyone else is a moron.

Sorry.. I don't 'name call' to everyone that disagrees with me... In FACT.. I belive it was YOU that provided some links that educated me on a subject that I was unfamiliar with, and "I" thanked "YOU" for that.. and not once called you a moron.. However, there are some things that I feel VERY strongly about, and the only time I've ever dealt with someone that couldn't at least understand (not neccissarily agree) the point was .. in fact.. a moron.. I'm sorry if that offends (or applies to) you.. I do belive I even said at one point that you seem to be a pretty bright individual, just not one that has looked at your opinions from more than one angle.. Again, if that offends you, tuff..

Do not however think that you have the knowledge to lecture me on the error of my experiences as you have no idea of what you speak.

 

I can tell you that everyone I have met who has done time was a victim of the victim psychology. By the time a real punishment for bad behavior was laid down the person was a hardened soul.

what? victim of the victim psychology? Perhaps it's late.. perhaps I've been drinking too much tonight.. or perhaps you made NO sense with that statement... 'doing time' has precious little to do with psychology.. it has a lot more to do with environment and how one was taught (or not taught, as the case may be) to interact with society.. A 'hardned soul' is, quite simply, someone who has given up on hope.. someone who knows it's futile to struggle against the status-quo.. someone who has resolved to being considered less than human by the rest of society..

The only person who can turn someone around is them.

I agree with that statement, but I would also add.. the only time they can do that is when they understand that they need to "turn around".. that's where the 'rehabilitation' aspect of prison comes into effect.. which is, after all, the topic of this thread.. If you belive putting the average human (which I don't think you can argue, is pretty 'not intelligent') in a cage for X years isn't gonna help them "turn around"..

You bring up a few questions for me though.. What do you have a degree in? What was your major? How did you pay for college and why didn't you use any of your GI Bill?... Just curious..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Corsica Savant, u know I got a ton of respect for ya and ur strong view points but were u beaten by a 0/2 awg wire???? EASY to become a teacher in America????? Dude did u ever have a freind or relative who became one??? I have one, in my mother. She has double certification, (english and elemntary education) and earns jack shit for a salary. Teachers aren't stupid, the standards change for what they have to teach and what they learned in college may not be what needs to be taught now. Without having "refresher" courses, and *****y little kids teachers may not be stupid but rather just not teaching to the best of their abilities. I mean come on, out of all of use how many of us can say we give 110% EVERY day we go to work?? I know I sure as **** don't.

 

J

Oh.. and I never implied that teaching was an easy job.. I know teachers (good ones) aren't appriciated and are underpaid... That has nothing to do with the fact that an Education major is one of the easiest degrees to get..

This doen't mean all teachers are stupid, it just means that there are plenty of stupid teachers out there.. Believe me, I've met way too many...

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

and not once called you a moron..

Interesting bit of revisionist posting?

if you think it will, you are diluted..

I assume you meant deluded? But since we disagree...

then again.. you are a moron)..

OOOOPS...the M word again.

Get a clue.. Just because you have been in a shitty place doesn't mean you have ANY understaning of the cause or the effects..

Wow I've lived my life for 46 years and have no clue as to how I got to where I am or where I was where I have been. I must be a moron...of course you being a Saavant can tell me all about it without ever being there. But then I can spell deluded. HMMMM...

you can't make a moron think

OOOPS!!! Let's see...I've been thinking...so maybe I'm not a moron?

telling all people that get shit on that it's their own fault is another..

This thread isn't about society it's about prison reform. The person who shit on me to cause my problem was...ME, so yes it was my fault. Did I have the best natural advantage from birth? No but I didn't have the worst either. I made decisions that made it worse. Then I made decisions which made it better.

Why not? You put your life on the line for the shitbags in this country and don't bother to utilize resources at your disposal?.. I don't get that..

This I believe. First of your lack of knowledge is showing again. Reserve duty is a weekend warrior status. 1 weekend a month plus 2 weeks a year. It does not get you GI Bill bennies. I was willing to put my life on the line because I believe in the ideals on which our nation was founded. The shitbags are those who believe that since the system lacks perfection is is a waste. If you had seen any of the rest of the world you would realize this.

By the by, how long did you spend in that shitty jail? Did you have a cell mate? Did you get to exercise? watch TV?.. were you ***** or beaten in there? Jail and "prison" are quite a bit different..

Long enough to know that I didn't want to return. 6 mths to be exact. About the time the avg drug offender spends in a modern prison. We were all cellmates as it was 1 big room. Survival was the exercise. There was no TV. The bathroom was a trough and a hole. Showers were weekly. Breakfast was 1 egg, coffee, toast. Lunch water and a bologna sandwich as was dinner. No I wasn't ***** but it was tried. Fighting was a way of life. Not that any of this is any of your business but please don't come here and pontifficate as if you know the difference between 1 penal institution and another.

Glad to hear you were able to do something about yours.. I was told to bugger off until some 'business' showed conceren.. Course, I could appeal that with every new governer, but why? What would be the point? What would I gain from it? not damm much.. and the 'average' joe on the street with a conviction isn't going to get an expungment..

Now again you speak as though you know something when you don't. A pardon is what you get from a Governor or President. An expungement is issued by a judge. It means that your record is available only to the criminal court system in case you backslide. It requires years of crime free living and testimony by respected members of society that know you and your behavior. In my case that was 2 business owners, 2 military officers, the sherrif and local police chief. Easy to do? No, and it shouldn't be.

You bring up a few questions for me though.. What do you have a degree in? What was your major? How did you pay for college and why didn't you use any of your GI Bill?... Just curious..

Again not that this is your business but my major was history and finance. I have the hrs for a degree in both but am fulfilling the BS course as i go. As I said I have WORKED my way through and time is an asset which I have too little of. I have worked my way to being finance director of a multi million dollar corporation. It has NOT been easy. This is why most people don't rehabilitate them selves. This is why most people do not excel. It takes more effort than they are willing to give.

Yes I now live a comfortable lifestyle but have never forgotten what poverty is. Today I consider my poor upbringings a blessing. Too many people fall to poverty not fearing it because they have never been there. Some people get into psycho babble about it when they have no experience.

This is America. For all of it's warts it affords the most people the best chance at success. Read the declaration of independence. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. High ideals indeed. The key word id PURSUIT. No social order other than communism can guarantee equal results, and it only guarantees equal misery. America can not MAKE anyone good, bad, successful, or a failure. The best any system can do is guarantee you OPPORTUNITY. What each person does with it is their own decision.

My eloquence on this topic falls far short or President Jefferson's but perhaps in some small way I have helped you or someone to "get it".

PEACE

 

[ss3079 5,000+ posts]

You guys are good

- Steve

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by LWW The key word id PURSUIT. No social order other than communism can guarantee equal results, and it only guarantees equal misery. America can not MAKE anyone good, bad, successful, or a failure. The best any system can do is guarantee you OPPORTUNITY. What each person does with it is their own decision.

 

Wow, I like this guy. Stay around LWW!!

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

Hey I'm not going anywhere. This a great country. I love the ability for intellectual debate from all sides. It's just that to me, and I'm not pointing at any person or thing in general, I put far more credence in listening to someone has been there and done that than I do to any amount of books or TV.

I can honestly say that my success is due to my hard work and the opportunity which was provided to me. I can also honestly say that all of personal problems in life had my participation at some point. It is hard to look one's self in the mirror and say "I fukked up." I think that we can all agree to this if we look deep inside. Sure we all have bad influences upon our lives. Who doesn't? It's society's responsibility to provide those in need the tools to build themselves a better life...with that I agree 100%. It is that individual's responsibility to themselves, their family, and their nation to pick up those tools and go to work.

My conviction was a high misdemeanor and not a felony but where I was there was no easy time. It was also what we bargained the plea to.

One of the proudest days of my life was being deemed a rehabilitated citizen. Now have I never broken the law since? Of course not. I am not a saint nor have I ever met one. I ca say that my few trangressions were ones of being a frail human being and not one of wanting to benefit myself whether I harmed another or not.

As to me personally I can say that a great society was handed down to my/our generations. It was paid for with the blood, sweat, and tears of our predecessors. Those who built it to this point never for the most part got to witness our great society or participate in it's riches. I only hope that when I am gone I have added something to the collective rather than only taking. In my youth I took advantage of this and squandered it. Today I see it differently.

I have probably talked more openly about this publicly here than I ever have to a group before. Now enough about that.

IMHO the best chance at reforming prison is first to stop making it a revolving door system. People need to be told that they fornicated themselves and not some nebulous "them". People need to be told that society has a place for those who learn a lesson and a foot in the arse for those who don't. Plain and simple.

Telling a kid that they get a break and 6 mths probation for stealing a purse may sound noble...but the 13 year old sees it as "man they bought line of shit...hehehe". Trust me. They were not done a service but a disservice.

Western countries have higher and higher crime rates because punishment is removed from the system and replaced with the theory that they can be re educated or rehabilitated and it just isn't so. Now the individual can do it but you can't do it to them. The only chance that society has to turn these people around is to make each offense carry a harder and harder blow. That with the PRIVELEGE of being allowed to begin education again, along with other bennies we all take for granted, when that person DEMONSTRATES AN ACTUAL CHANGE OF CHARACTER and not some BS "whahahaha I'm sorry, my momma didn't love me enough, my daddy was a drunk, ther's a rat in my basement, the dog ate my homework, and all the other kids do the same thing, but this time I'm really sorry".

PEACE

 

[nswartley 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by ss3079 You guys are good

 

- Steve

word. this must be the most heated argument in the history of these forums...not to mention the most lengthy...

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW Interesting bit of revisionist posting?

Not revisionist... I went back through and nope.. didn't call 'you' a moron.. but, this is nit-picking at this point.. I noticed there were a LOT of things I pointed out that you conviently neglected to reply to. Normally that happens when someone is trying to distract from the flow of the debate..

I assume you meant deluded? But since we disagree...

Yes, I meant deluded.. I have mild Dyslexica and sever Dysgraphia (as well as a touch of Dysnomia).. I suppose I could cut/paste the ENTIRE post into a word editor and hit the spell check button.. or any word that I know is one that is out of the typical use for the average person (which means I don't see it often so I've not learned the pattern for that word, since I don't get the rules for the english language.. course, not many people do.. it's one of the worlds most buggered language) could be looked up.. But, I'd rather not waste the time making sure that the use my extensive vocabulary is maticulous (bet that is spelled wrong to.. don't care anymore.. if that's what you have to pick on, then you are in close quarters with LuRp, who seems to have left after being spanked in the war thread. Debate based on content, don't use typos and misspelled words to try and debunk valid statements.. it's just plain bad debating)

OOOOPS...the M word again.

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Yeah, I was calling you a moron last night.. but your reference is to your 'wrongly' made statement about revisionist postings.. so, again, not only are you trying to side-step the debate, you are trying to minimalize my arguments by distracting from the issues..

Wow I've lived my life for 46 years and have no clue as to how I got to where I am or where I was where I have been. I must be a moron...of course you being a Saavant can tell me all about it without ever being there. But then I can spell deluded. HMMMM...

Then my guess about you being near 50 was correct.. And that means you got indoor plubming when? about 1970?.. Have you lived in OH all your life? If you did, then I'm betting you lived in rural america.. were there are STILL a lot of places that don't have municipal water and depend on wells for their water.. That was a TOTALY different world that the inner city today. To claim you know anything about the "culture of poverty" because you were a poor farm boy? is ludicrous (bet that's spelled wrong to, you should point that out to show how invalid my argument is)..

And, my 'knowing' is from living it.. sorry to burst your buble again.. When I was 7 - 10 (1977 - 1980) we had peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for christmas dinner.. all of my clothes came from good will or other thrift stores.. Try living down going to school wearing a coat that one of your classmates knows was donated .. and they promptly point that out to the rest of the school.. Then at one point, I lived in Milwaukee WI.. went to the 10th grade at Washington High.. had to ride the bus through North High territory.. inner city.. there were shootings at North High back in 1985.. but you didn't see much media coverage about it, not like now when we hear about an affluent school having shots fired.. now the country cares since it's not in the inner cities anymore.. I was almost mugged walking to the bus after school.. for "change for a dollar" or "do you know what time it is?".. I watched this chick pick up a big rock and walk over to me with another friend and a guy standing across the street.. Had I gone for change or looked at my watch I'd have been bashed on the head.. Is that the kind of 'poor' you grew up in? Then, I spent 2 years living in my truck (literally).. had to steal food sometimes.. Tried to get a job, but it's hard when you can't put down a valid address on the application.. Not even McDolands wants to hire someone without an address.. I actually got a job at Walmart in my town when they were opening.. I lived in the parking lot for 2 weeks.. people would knock on my window to wake me up and I'd go in and take a sink bath.. then work all day.. Once I got my first paycheck I rented a single room in a dive where the drunks and druggies would piss on the wall in the hall.. Course, once I finished helping get the entire store ready for opening, I got fired (along with about 20% of all the people who worked at getting it ready).. on trumped up charges/accusations.. Back to the street.. I even had a 'room mate' at one point.. a buddy who lost his job and could only manage 5 days a week for staying at friends houses.. he spent the other 2 nights sleeping in my truck with me..

Don't preach to me about not knowing what it's like to be poor.. Been there Done that.. Much more so than some rural farm boy who grew up in a totally different era than now.. So, you were one of the last in your community to get indoor plumbing.. in 1970, yeah.. that makes you an expert on being poor.. My grandfather was poor.. grew up in the depression.. had 3 jobs at 14 and went to school full time to support his mom and 6 siblings.. They ate bread most days and occasionaly got something of meat.. For years.. That, my friend, is poor..

OOOPS!!! Let's see...I've been thinking...so maybe I'm not a moron?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

This thread isn't about society it's about prison reform. The person who shit on me to cause my problem was...ME, so yes it was my fault. Did I have the best natural advantage from birth? No but I didn't have the worst either. I made decisions that made it worse. Then I made decisions which made it better.

Actually, you made it into a debate about society when you said I was .. what was that .. something about a pantload? Oh.. this..

What a pantload of Bravo Sierra.

.. That in response to my statement about what puts people 'in' prison..
Again, good for you that you turned your life around.. But, as you point out here.. You didn't come from "the worst".. sitting in a cell for 6 months did you some good.. but if you are 'a hardened soul' as you said earlier that some are, sitting on your butt for 6 months or even 6 years in a crappy environment is NOT going to cause you to re-think your situation.. But, then, that's one of my statements you conveniently negleted to touch on..

This I believe. First of your lack of knowledge is showing again. Reserve duty is a weekend warrior status. 1 weekend a month plus 2 weeks a year. It does not get you GI Bill bennies. I was willing to put my life on the line because I believe in the ideals on which our nation was founded. The shitbags are those who believe that since the system lacks perfection is is a waste. If you had seen any of the rest of the world you would realize this.

Actaully, the only knowledge I lacked was your age.. I also went reserves when I went into the Navy.. SeaBees.. guess what? I HAD ACCESS TO THE GI BILL.. Then, I went active duty (to escape living in the streets.. amazing how I managed to get to my reserve meetings while living in my car.. but, then, it was far enough away that I got a hotel for the weekend and 3 meals a day for 2 days.. can't pass that up.. then, one October day in WI in the middle of a blizzard and 2 ft of snow on the ground, they said they had open billets for builders to go Active.. so I did).. Spent 6 months in Guam.. US Territory.. nasty place for the most part.. And I watch educational channels and see how other countries act/behave/treat their citizens.. While I haven't lived in a lot of places abroad, I do consider myself at least a little educated to the rest of the world..

I never said our system was a waste.. or that it wasnt pretty great.. I said it has some serious and fundamental flaws which directly cause the need for prisons (for theft/drugs/battery/etc.. ****, as noted before, is a different beast all together)..

(grr.. damm 10,000 char limit!)

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Long enough to know that I didn't want to return. 6 mths to be exact. About the time the avg drug offender spends in a modern prison. We were all cellmates as it was 1 big room. Survival was the exercise. There was no TV. The bathroom was a trough and a hole. Showers were weekly. Breakfast was 1 egg, coffee, toast. Lunch water and a bologna sandwich as was dinner. No I wasn't ***** but it was tried. Fighting was a way of life. Not that any of this is any of your business but please don't come here and pontifficate as if you know the difference between 1 penal institution and another.

I think you better do some research.. 6mo. in prison is pretty short. And, depending on a LOT of variables, you can spend between 5 and 15 years on your first offense..

By my math, you ended up in jail in '76? Was this in the same rural community that you grew up in? (well.. I really shouldn't be making the presumption that you were a farm boy in the middle of nowhere when you were a kid.. but that's pretty much the only way I see you having an outhouse as the only place to potty until you were 12, in 1970..). Dirt floors and one large cage is not even close to modern jails.. that's like something from Mexico now-adays.. Here too, I'd be curious about what kind of conviction it was since I doubt you would get 6 months for having a joint on you, or even a 1/4 oz for personal use.. You might though, since the idea is punishment is a deterant and they wanted you not to smoke anymore (ever wonder why that is? something about opening your mind, actually.. now there is even a debate about if Ephedra, an erb, should be made illegal over the counter since it's killing people.. but the FDA only wants to make 'herbs' illegal if they have a 'proven' seriously negative effect.. pot does not, not on the individual.. course, it causes people to question currput government leaders and corperate america.. so in that sense, and that sense alone, it's dangerous).. Anyway, this is straying way off the point.. Jail is not prison.. they both ****, but they are on different scales.. Doesn't change the topic.. should prisons rehabilitate or just detain in shitty conditions..

Now again you speak as though you know something when you don't. A pardon is what you get from a Governor or President. An expungement is issued by a judge. It means that your record is available only to the criminal court system in case you backslide. It requires years of crime free living and testimony by respected members of society that know you and your behavior. In my case that was 2 business owners, 2 military officers, the sherrif and local police chief. Easy to do? No, and it shouldn't be.

Then it sounds like an expungment is even more powerful than a pardon.. know why? YOU STILL HAVE TO ANSWER YES TO THE FELONY QUESTION.. and can add you have a pardon.. no 'hiding' it there.. And, as you pointed out, it's a lot easier to get an expungement than a pardon.. the only reason to need a pardon instead of an expungment is because you are dealing with a felony instead of a misdimeanor (unless expungment is on top of a pardon, but I bet you can't get an expungment of a felony, and if you can, not until you get the pardon).. Anyway, this still has nothing to do with the topic or undertone of these posts..

Again not that this is your business but my major was history and finance. I have the hrs for a degree in both but am fulfilling the BS course as i go. As I said I have WORKED my way through and time is an asset which I have too little of. I have worked my way to being finance director of a multi million dollar corporation. It has NOT been easy. This is why most people don't rehabilitate them selves. This is why most people do not excel. It takes more effort than they are willing to give.

Not sure where to go with this.. All I can really get from here is you started college but never finished.. then started working for a 'multi million dollar' company (which doens't impress me, by the way.. I worked for a 'multi million dollay' company in Arkansas.. very small outfit.. it was a software company with 3 developers.. I personally helped build, from the ground up with just my manager, a producted projected to pull in ~$5 mil a year.. then was promptly let go instead of getting the raise I was promised I would get when the product was complete.. "million dollar a year" companies are a dime a dozen actually, and I'm not sure how hard it would be to be the finance guy for that.. The finance guy for the Arkansas company was a putz).. You have the 'hours' for History and Finance? what does that mean? As in, the course of study requires X hours of 'field' work or something like that and you have that, just haven't taken the actual courses? ok.. so?.. you don't have a degree yet but are getting one.. the point is? I guess the point is you don't have a degree, but were willing to imply you did since you said you attended college.. Truth is, you didn't get a degree so mentioning you attended college is pointless (without more information as to why that's pertinant to anything) History and Finance.. I would think you would have a much better grasp of the American economy then, and how corperate america has systematically abused the population for money (and if you really want to get into all of that, how the religious leaders helped corperations along by focusing on the whole "you suffer more now but will have better when you die" bs..). So, I would also think that if you can see how this has all been going (history), you could see how a small sector of our society is being totally shit on (finance).. most of those are the people in prison.. and you don't think we should try and help them have better tools to live with when they get out of prison than when they went in? That being reform/rehabilitation.. I'm losing more respect for you each time you post.. You have the tools/information (seemingly) to look at this from several angles yet you insist on being closed-minded and say "I got out so it's their own fault if they don't".. Typical Conservative attitude.. Gimme mine and screw anyone that can't take theirs, nevermind the FACT that one can't have without someone else going without..

Yes I now live a comfortable lifestyle but have never forgotten what poverty is. Today I consider my poor upbringings a blessing. Too many people fall to poverty not fearing it because they have never been there. Some people get into psycho babble about it when they have no experience.

Well.. again, since you haven't provided enough info, I can't speak to your 'poverty'.. but again, I'll bet it wasn't "modern inner city" type poverty with drugs/alchohol/shootings/abuse/etc etc.. Being 'poor' is one thing, and yes.. it can be a powerful motivator.. but you make it seem like people that had decent lives decide to give up and "fall into poverty" ? That makes no sense and has no bearing on what we are talking about.. we are talking about people who are born and raised in extreme poverty who don't have the tools required to even KNOW they have a choice to get out..

(sigh) still over..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

This is America. For all of it's warts it affords the most people the best chance at success. Read the declaration of independence. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. High ideals indeed. The key word id PURSUIT. No social order other than communism can guarantee equal results, and it only guarantees equal misery. America can not MAKE anyone good, bad, successful, or a failure. The best any system can do is guarantee you OPPORTUNITY. What each person does with it is their own decision.

And I bet our founding Fathers are turning in their graves at what this country has done with their beautiful ideals.. When the government and corperate america remove the OPPORTUNITY of part of it's population they are trampeling all over the constitution.. you can't "persue" happiness when you can't feed yourself or cloth yourself or house yourself.. and that makes Jack a dull (and bitter and angry and potentially violent and dangerous) boy..

This still doesn't touch on the fact that we have people comming into prison with no tools at their disposal to change their life (from their perspective).. If we want to actually keep them from comming back to prison, those tools need to be given to them (rehabilitation).. simple as that..

My eloquence on this topic falls far short or President Jefferson's but perhaps in some small way I have helped you or someone to "get it".

 

PEACE

Oh, belive me, I get it.. much more so than the average Joe.. I'm not the problem here, people who could care less about 2% of our society living in 3rd world conditions so 2% - 3% of our society can on 75%+ of everything this country has.. they are the problem.. Government helps corperations much more than they help the 'comman citizen'.. this is NOT what the government is supposed to do.. The constitution and declaration of independance were put down to give guidelines as to what the government should do and to put limits on what it could do to prevent it abusing the public.. Problem is, the rich people play on the greed of the typical man and 'buy' favors in the government.. things that are by FAR not in the best interest of the average citizen (or most citizens for that matter)..

Anyway, if you want to try and school me on somthing, you might want to start supplying reasonable information to substantiate your points.. If you don't want to do that, then stop crying when someone has to make a presumption to make a rebuttle.. Making 1/2 statements and trying to draw attention away from the topic at hand by attacking spelling and intentionally ignoring the bulk of someone's argument (like I said, you pretty much only commented on the few things you wanted to to try and derail my arguments without actually speaking to my points) isn't gonna get you anywhere.. not with intelligent people anyway.. If you think you actually have a valid point and aren't just spouting personal preference and opinion then substantiate.. otherwise state it's your opinion so no one can actually refute what you say..

 

[nswartley 5,000+ posts]

ho ho holy shit........thats a ton of reading