prison reform

[LWW 10+ year member]

nevermind the FACT that one can't have without someone else going without..

Then explain how we have more than ever before. You see you only believe that nothing can advance the individual so the solution is to tear down the rest of the world. When one shows hope you have to slander it because it tears down your wall of pap. We ALL can produce and add to the collective. Something as simple as this forum proves that. If I buy a new stereo does that mean someone lost theirs? My God no in fact the opposite. My purchase EMPOWERS that individual to GAIN themselves.

those tools need to be given to them (rehabilitation).. simple as that..

OK let's test your theory. Give rehabilitation to Charles Manson, or Sadaam Hussein, or anyone else in prison who refuses to rehabilitate themselves. When I see the rehab genie work ONCE I will admit it. Simple as that.

Making 1/2 statements and trying to draw attention away from the topic at hand by attacking spelling and intentionally ignoring the bulk of someone's argument (like I said, you pretty much only commented on the few things you wanted to to try and derail my arguments without actually speaking to my points) isn't gonna get you anywhere.. not with intelligent people anyway..

Well you have been the one to tell everybody how hopeless your lot was and how golden everyone else's has been. No problem of yours was your doing nut the EEEVILLL oppressive society. I have taken responsibility and credit both.

How is it that in one post my position in life affords me all these comforts and then in another it is belittled? Is it the opportunity to argue for the sake of argument? Is it that the fact your defensive shell of blame is dented by the truth?

As to claiming a degree I have not done so at all other than the claim of a PhD from the school of hard knocks. my attempt was to make that plain to anyone reading it OBJECTIVELY that it was a pull myself up by the bootstraps education which helped me more than any school education.

Your lashing out at everyone and everything will only subside when you gain an introspective view of the inside of the human soul as well as the outside world. Foe every shitty life experience you state I bet there was a helping hand held out by another kind human being as well. I know there was in my case. My problem was for a long time I ignored it and wallowed in woe is me myself.

As far as intelligence that is a relative term and you obviously believe that you have it in abundance, As to my opinion I see a bitter person who is still living in denial. I wish you would take a hand held out in friendship to help pull you up brother. I have been where you are mentally and feel for you.

PEACE

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

Originally posted by nswartley ho ho holy shit........thats a ton of reading

You crack me up man.

PEACE

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW I can honestly say that my success is due to my hard work and the opportunity which was provided to me.

That's part of my point.. you had an opportunity.. believe it or not, that opportunity does not exist for all people in this country. People living in the ghetto all of their lives and depend on violence for survival have a totally different outlook on life. It's to be expected if you ask me.. "Life before society was brutish and short".. can't remember who said that.. Some Philosopher or Sociologist I believe.. I'm leaning toward Philosopher.. But, the point is, when you live in extreme poverty you aren't living in a 'society' like most Americans do.. it's a much more primal state of being..

I can also honestly say that all of personal problems in life had my participation at some point. It is hard to look one's self in the mirror and say "I fukked up." I think that we can all agree to this if we look deep inside. Sure we all have bad influences upon our lives. Who doesn't? It's society's responsibility to provide those in need the tools to build themselves a better life...with that I agree 100%. It is that individual's responsibility to themselves, their family, and their nation to pick up those tools and go to work.

Like I've said time and again.. There are a LOT of people who aren't actively participating in the things that cause them problems.. Doing drugs and alchohol at 8 yrs old isn't someone participaing in the descisions that cause them problems.. Being part of a sub-culture that most people in this country doesn't want to know about isn't actively participating in your problems.. Is this a justification for poor behavior? Kinda.. but not entirely.. I'm saying (kind of like you are) that once they get to prison, we have an obligation to present them with the tools they need.. force them to look at them.. Our current system likes to pretend those tools are available (oh, we have free groups on Tuesday night.. we offer pamphlets on how drugs are bad.. we let poor people get a GED free at this or that community college..) but the information isn't really getting to who it needs to get to.. nor are they likely to care given their current environment (like I said, it's called the culture of poverty, they have totally different values than the rest of the country.. and with good reason, survival).. My point is, when someone gets to prison, don't sit them in a cell and expect them to 'think about what they did'.. as a condition of their release, force them to pick up the tools they need.. if they get out and chose not to use them, then they will end up back in prison.. nothing you can do about that.. but if you don't make sure you put the tools in their face, you can't say "tools exist for them" as many times they are hidden pretty well from the disenfranchised..

My conviction was a high misdemeanor and not a felony but where I was there was no easy time. It was also what we bargained the plea to.

 

One of the proudest days of my life was being deemed a rehabilitated citizen. Now have I never broken the law since? Of course not. I am not a saint nor have I ever met one. I ca say that my few trangressions were ones of being a frail human being and not one of wanting to benefit myself whether I harmed another or not.

 

As to me personally I can say that a great society was handed down to my/our generations. It was paid for with the blood, sweat, and tears of our predecessors. Those who built it to this point never for the most part got to witness our great society or participate in it's riches. I only hope that when I am gone I have added something to the collective rather than only taking. In my youth I took advantage of this and squandered it. Today I see it differently.

No one is saying this isn't a great country.. I'm just saying that it's becomming more and more currupt which puts more and more if her citizens in conditions that aren't much farther up the ladder than 3rd world countries.. and that's sad.. for the richest country in the world (other than the Vatican City) to have so many people living like animals and not caring..

I have probably talked more openly about this publicly here than I ever have to a group before. Now enough about that.

 

IMHO the best chance at reforming prison is first to stop making it a revolving door system. People need to be told that they fornicated themselves and not some nebulous "them". People need to be told that society has a place for those who learn a lesson and a foot in the arse for those who don't. Plain and simple.

 

Telling a kid that they get a break and 6 mths probation for stealing a purse may sound noble...but the 13 year old sees it as "man they bought line of shit...hehehe". Trust me. They were not done a service but a disservice.

I agree.. only, as I noted in my original post, most of the time that you come out of prison you aren't allowed to have a place in society (not decent society anyway).. they are branded as an ex-con and looked down on by just about everyone outside the culture of poverty (being a con there is a badge of honor)..

Your example of the kid and purse is culturally biased.. Some kids will laugh and steal a purse again (or something bigger).. Then you bust them.. how is giving someone a second chance on something 'not serious' such a bad thing? I was put on probation when I got busted for the stereo (Sorry about trying to make it seem like 'someone' dealing with a felony wasn't me.. it is me).. I paid the restitution and was let off probation as soon as it was paid.. I haven't even as much as thought about commiting a crime since then.. So how is it a disservice to give someone a second chance? Sometimes people actually use that to decide it's not worth it to do whatever again, knowing how close they came to jail or prison and knowing that next time there won't be any getting off easy..

Western countries have higher and higher crime rates because punishment is removed from the system and replaced with the theory that they can be re educated or rehabilitated and it just isn't so. Now the individual can do it but you can't do it to them. The only chance that society has to turn these people around is to make each offense carry a harder and harder blow. That with the PRIVELEGE of being allowed to begin education again, along with other bennies we all take for granted, when that person DEMONSTRATES AN ACTUAL CHANGE OF CHARACTER and not some BS "whahahaha I'm sorry, my momma didn't love me enough, my daddy was a drunk, ther's a rat in my basement, the dog ate my homework, and all the other kids do the same thing, but this time I'm really sorry".

 

PEACE

Again, I think you are trying entirely too hard to relieve (at least part of) the blame from society.. I argue that you are seeing more and more crime because you are seeing more and more people getting the shaft by society so the rich people can get even more rich.. I agree completely that you can't force someone to want to be a better person.. and there is nothing you can do for them (other than keep putting them in prison for longer and longer terms, but that just wastes a lot of money.. why not remove their citizenship and deport them or something, or, if they have done something haneous, execute them).. But, as a society that forces harship on some of our citizens, we should make an honest effort to help them out... and the common place for that is prison.. Ideally, we would catch people before that, but again, our society doesn't even want to acknowledge what it's doing to a small section of our citizens and tosses 1/2 assed solutions at them and them blame them for not 'taking advantage of the opportunity' that was provided.. Given a blind man a match then saying it's his own fault for walking into a wall in the dark for not using the match is pretty stupid, but that's how a lot of these 'tools' are being presented to the population outside of prison.. in the streets.. things that make no sense to them and aren't gonna help them..

You want to lower crime? Increase the resources spent on improving the quality of life for the bottom of our society... spend money on schools and parks and things they can do instead of sit around doing drugs and fighting and killing each other over a pair of shoes..

To be perfectly honest, I'm getting damm tired of people who haven't lived a life of total oppresion and abuse saying all a persons transgressions are their fault alone.. Try to wrap your mind around where they are comming from and what their world view is.. Try to immagine that a pair of Nike Air's is more important than a human life.. That if someone flips you the bird that you have a right to kill them.. The mindset of these people is so forgein to most people that they can't even begin to immagine.. so they blame the individual.. that's the easy thing to do and doesn't imply that the rest of the people in America hold some of the blame so they can have their nice cars and nice homes and surpluss income..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW Then explain how we have more than ever before. You see you only believe that nothing can advance the individual so the solution is to tear down the rest of the world. When one shows hope you have to slander it because it tears down your wall of pap. We ALL can produce and add to the collective. Something as simple as this forum proves that. If I buy a new stereo does that mean someone lost theirs? My God no in fact the opposite. My purchase EMPOWERS that individual to GAIN themselves.

*sigh* Apparently you don't understand the Law of Conservation of Energy.. To a large degree it applies to this (conceptually).. The US, one of the smaller countries in the world, consumes over 50% of the WORLD's resources.. that means, there are a LOT of human beings going without so we can consume..

Additionally, you haven't been paying attention to the other threads you've been posting in where I comment on our Economic model, that requires unemployment to drive it.. That means, in order for 'most' people to have nice things, others have to go without a job (at least for a short time) and end up loosing stuff.. but guess who never looses? THE RICHEST people in the country.. they always gain becuase there are always people loosing..

OK let's test your theory. Give rehabilitation to Charles Manson, or Sadaam Hussein, or anyone else in prison who refuses to rehabilitate themselves. When I see the rehab genie work ONCE I will admit it. Simple as that.

WTF??? You pick a total psycho that should have been executed and one that is a Dictator of a 3rd world nation? and ask how rehabilitation would help when the whole idea is trying to let a ghetto kid know that he doesn't have to sell drugs on the corner for the rest of his life, he can actually do something else? Holy crap.. you are really reaching now.. another diversion tactic...

Well you have been the one to tell everybody how hopeless your lot was and how golden everyone else's has been. No problem of yours was your doing nut the EEEVILLL oppressive society. I have taken responsibility and credit both.

I never said everyone elses was golden.. I was stating that I was in the bottom of the crap-pile (and still not as deep as the inner city ghetto people, I was in a relatively smaller town where I didn't have to worry about being shot while I slept in my truck) and struggled out.. you said you can't respect an opinion about this unless someone's been there and done that, yet as soon as I show you that I have been there and done that, you dismiss my argument as just me complaing? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

How is it that in one post my position in life affords me all these comforts and then in another it is belittled? Is it the opportunity to argue for the sake of argument? Is it that the fact your defensive shell of blame is dented by the truth?

*boggle* I have no idea what you are trying to say here.. nothing that I'm posting is just for the sake of argument (well, all this kind of is since it isn't gonna change anything in the real world.. tough, someone might be reading this and form some opinions from our banter.. good or bad)..

As to claiming a degree I have not done so at all other than the claim of a PhD from the school of hard knocks. my attempt was to make that plain to anyone reading it OBJECTIVELY that it was a pull myself up by the bootstraps education which helped me more than any school education.

I never said you claimed to 'have' a degree, I said you 'implied' you had a degree by staging you "attended college".. which was totally pointless to the conversation unless you achived something from it, which you obviously didn't at that time.. And as I pointed out, just because you had experiences from ONE of the MANY types of 'poverty' doesn't not mean you have a 'PhD' from hard knocks.. it takes a LOT more than seeing one thing to get a PhD.. you might have a High School Diploma in Sociology from hard knocks, but that's about it..

And while your experiences may have helped you get through life more than anything you might have learned in school, it certianly doesn't mean you have the same level of informed opinion you could accuire from school.. Why do you think colleges exist? To expose you to a wealth of information outside of the little bubble you live in (we all live in our own little bubbles)..

Your lashing out at everyone and everything will only subside when you gain an introspective view of the inside of the human soul as well as the outside world. Foe every shitty life experience you state I bet there was a helping hand held out by another kind human being as well. I know there was in my case. My problem was for a long time I ignored it and wallowed in woe is me myself.

Again, you are trying to force your life experinces onto others.. No, for most of the time I lived in the streets I didn't have any help.. not in a context that would help me get out of the street.. not until I had the cance to go Active Duty.. and I jumped on it immediately..

As far as gaining introspective on the human soul, I really don't know what you are getting at.. Not sure how that's pertinant.. I happen to like myself a lot, and think I have a kind and gentle soul.. I would like to believe that most people can be decent human beings, but that's just not the case.. I believe humans are born relatively neutral and grow one way or another.. and in todays society, more and more people are growing into greey, petty, mean, selfish, self rightous, pompas *****.. I know some very decent people, but I know a LOT more not so nice people..

My lashing out is based on not likeing how my brother man is being treated by the masses. It's about being angry that most people in this country have blinders on and could care less about their fellow man.. and about how the government "of the people, for the people, by the people" is letting a few rich people shit on society as a whole.. That's what I'm lashing out about.. I pray to .. whomeverisoutthereifthereissomeoneoutthere .. that I never loose the deisre to lash out against oppressors and aggressors.. I don't want to be a complacant sheep like the masses.. sorry..

As far as intelligence that is a relative term and you obviously believe that you have it in abundance, As to my opinion I see a bitter person who is still living in denial. I wish you would take a hand held out in friendship to help pull you up brother. I have been where you are mentally and feel for you.

 

PEACE

Actually, Intelligence is NOT relative, its an absolute that is testable.. It's defined as ones ability to solve a problem.. From dictionary.com..

1.

1. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge.

2. The faculty of thought and reason.

3. Superior powers of mind. See Synonyms at mind.

Wisdom is the ability to apply what you have learned.. that is more subjective and not as quantifiable.. 'relative'..

My being bitter is based on not likeing seeing people get shit on..

I'm living in denial of what? Perhaps you are projecting since you seem to be in denial that our society shits on a few million people and does it's dammdest to ignore it.. and then blames them and them alone for being animalistic..

 

[ss3079 5,000+ posts]

Guys, guys, guys, take a time out here:

Moderators would be able to move, edit, and delete threads and posts. This will not only give the board a more positive appearance, but it will greatly reduce the number of disturbing and unnecessary threads and posts on the boards. I know you are thinking that this will not work, because people would abuse there power and ban people left and right. Well, it would not work like that. The moderators and the Admin would get together and discuss the issue at hand, and the Admin would still hold the power to ban.

Please take the time to visit the link provided to just sign your name, or add a comment, or two.

http://caraudio.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24872

You may send me a reply if you wish, with your thoughts.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and I hope we can make a difference together, as a team

Best regards,

- Steve (a.k.a. ss3079)

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

Savant my friend you agree with me and I don't think you even realize it. Your restitution was not being given a second chance. It was paying a penalty for what you had done and learning a lesson, and for that you should be commended. A "don't do that again" for either of us would not have helped.

Also your OPPORTUNITY to go active duty was just that...and gladly uou took it. Had you been handed for nothing an easy way out you would have likely ended up back. Maybe not but that is usually the case.

Also consider this. As a nation of the people by the people and for the people we have a system as imperfect as people are...however it is the best that has ever been found.

Where else could you, I, or anyone else speak out about our grievances with the gubmint, be they real or perceived, and not be incarcerated for improper thought? Well that would be here, Canada (oun natl clone), England (our natl father), Japan and Germany (our natl stepchildren) and that's about it man.

We live where opportunity does exist for everyone. We all have a chance. Some have it worse than others. Some better. Life ain't perfect, never was, and never will be. Is the violent criminal mind foreign to most? Sure so what? It's not an inner city thing. A country thing. A black thing. A white thing. It's a human thing. Everyone who values a pair of shoes more than a life started way before with much more petty wrongs.

Can the prison reform be back engineered to include school reform among other reforms? Sure...and these need to be handled as well.

The problem isn't money spent because we spend more than anybody. The problem is responsibility and the teaching of the same. Our society today ois so set on to$$ some money at any social problem and hope it goes away. Instead we need to get back to enforcing societal rules which lasted for centuries AND WORKED.

The thinking that every criminal is the victim of a fornicated childhood is what got us here. Adult discipline needs to be exercised when the brat first backtalks to a teacher or hits another kid. When we make excuses for the behavior until the 14 year old needlessly takes a life it is way too late.

By this time the victim is a victim. The criminal is a victim of being excused their whole life because they were told they were a victim. And society is a victim. We have kids drinking and cracking at age 8 because we tolerate it not because it is inevitable.

I doubt that I will post to this topic again as I feel my point(s) have been well made.

PEACE

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW Savant my friend you agree with me and I don't think you even realize it. Your restitution was not being given a second chance. It was paying a penalty for what you had done and learning a lesson, and for that you should be commended. A "don't do that again" for either of us would not have helped.

Actually, the restitution was just repaying the incurred damages to the victim. That, if you ask me, has nothing to do with getting a second chance or not, it was just the reasonable thing to do.. The fines were another $1,000 which was also noise to me ($3,500 total).. The thing that stuck in my mind the most was having to go to the Probation Officer once a month, at the time they wanted me there, and if I didn't show up, I'd go to jail.. Probation was the deterant (that and my own realization that what I had done wasn't right.. course, I knew that going in but needed food and didn't care that much.. getting caught just made me take the 'do unto others' philosophy more to heart).. Your statement was that 'probation' isn't the answer, that it was a dis-service. I disagree. For someone that wants to do the right thing, and has the tools to see what that means, probation can be an effective deterant.. Putting them in prison with 'no privileges', as you suggest, is what I would consider not giving someone a second chance..

Also your OPPORTUNITY to go active duty was just that...and gladly uou took it. Had you been handed for nothing an easy way out you would have likely ended up back. Maybe not but that is usually the case.

Yes.. I had the opportunity.. but a lot of people don't have that..

What would you consider 'being handed for nothing an easy way out'?? Winning the lottery?? I was looking for work and not able to find any.. I wanted to work but couldn't get any.. And, that was years before the commision of any crimes.. That opportunity prevented me from doing anything rash at that point... it's when I got out of the Navy and ended up in the streets again that I commited the felony.. So, in that context, I took the opportunity to get out of a bad sitaution at that point, but ended up back in a shitty spot a few years later.. Therefore, your statment, while nice.. has no meaning.. I wasn't 'handed an opportunity' when I decided to enroll in college and do something with my life.. It's something I decided to do to provide a decent life for my daughter..

Also consider this. As a nation of the people by the people and for the people we have a system as imperfect as people are...however it is the best that has ever been found.

And.. I argue that some people are a LOT more imperfect than others, politicians being amungst the worst..

Where else could you, I, or anyone else speak out about our grievances with the gubmint, be they real or perceived, and not be incarcerated for improper thought? Well that would be here, Canada (oun natl clone), England (our natl father), Japan and Germany (our natl stepchildren) and that's about it man.

Well, you said it.. several countries that don't have the same economic disparigence we have.. Democratic societies that aren't run by only a few people..

We live where opportunity does exist for everyone. We all have a chance. Some have it worse than others. Some better. Life ain't perfect, never was, and never will be. Is the violent criminal mind foreign to most? Sure so what? It's not an inner city thing. A country thing. A black thing. A white thing. It's a human thing. Everyone who values a pair of shoes more than a life started way before with much more petty wrongs.

You almost understand! They started with the petty wrongs of not being able to have decent meals, being exposed to drugs/alchohol, violence, abuse, murder, and many other atrocities before they were 10 years old.. They were shit on from day one and that is what builds their moral base (or lack there of according to most people).. It's NOT their fault that they start out in total crap, it's their parents', right? but their parents started there too.. Hmm.. it goes back for a long time.. many generations of people are born and raised in total crap for an existence.. and thereby have a totally different moral set than 'normal' people.. why? so the rich can get more rich and the average American can have a decent life.. Instead of trying to lift these poeple out of the muck, it's easier to spit on them and blame them for being in the muck in the first place? Yeah, that makes sense.. And no, it's not 'just' an inner city thing, that's just where it's the most rampant.. Blaming someone for starting out in complete crap for a life isn't gonna help them to understand they don't have to stay there.. making them informed and offering them a way out is the only way to break the cycle (and yes, they have to want to.. but you can't keep faulting them if you aren't willing to give them the information and tools needed to change)

Though, I would argue the point of opportunity existing for 'everyone'.. while I agree that as a general rule, most people have a reasonable chance to advance their lives if they want to, that is not the truth for 'all' people in this country..

Also, prison isn't reserved for just 'violent' criminals.. people busted for various drug charges can end up there too.. and a violent crime might be justified.. Involentary Manslaughter.. ever heard of that? Sometimes someone dies but the government wants to make sure people don't think that it's ok.. so they punish someone that might otherwise not be guilty (would be self defense perhaps).. All types end up in prison, not just rapists and child molesters.. And, sometimes people that should be in prison can buy their freedom, how is that equal opportunity? If I have millions of dollars, I have more rights than a street thug..

Can the prison reform be back engineered to include school reform among other reforms? Sure...and these need to be handled as well.

So, now you are saying the educational system needs to be fixed? But, aren't you the one that earlier said "FACT: all kids have a desk and books in a school"? Yet, you now acknowledge that the educational system is failing some of our children? .. Well, I guess I should at least be happy that you can see that..

The problem isn't money spent because we spend more than anybody. The problem is responsibility and the teaching of the same. Our society today ois so set on to$$ some money at any social problem and hope it goes away. Instead we need to get back to enforcing societal rules which lasted for centuries AND WORKED.

What, public flogging of the lower class so the upper class doesn't have to worry about a peasant uprising? Do you have ANY idea why we came to this country?? Because that type of thinking is NOT acceptable.. We came here to get away from oppresive rule, yet you want to 'enforce social rules' like has been done 'for centuries'? We are just over 200 years old in this country.. you really think it's a good idea to treat people now like we did then? Like was being done when our Fathers decided to leave the country that did that? Wow..

You are right, most of society figures that if they make some kind of 'fund' for a problem that the problem should go away.. but they do that in a vaccume.. I agree, tossing money at a problem doesn't make it go away, but that's what the rich of this country try to do.. why? they have tons of money and no compassion or desire to be associated to the despare they cause in order to have their money..

(pseudo edit:.. I think by 'rules which lasted for centuries' you mean we should have all people in our society be decent people.. and with that I agree.. we 'do' enforce those rules.. that's why we have prisons and such, to let people know that they have certian things they must do to be allowed to comingle with the rest of us.. I have no idea why you mention that in the way you did.. course, that's why I made the inital statement in response..)

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

The thinking that every criminal is the victim of a fornicated childhood is what got us here. Adult discipline needs to be exercised when the brat first backtalks to a teacher or hits another kid. When we make excuses for the behavior until the 14 year old needlessly takes a life it is way too late.

Yet more cultural relativism.. Sure, it would be ideal if all parents were good parents and had the means to provide decent lives for their kids and were good role models.. But that isn't reality.. When the poorest of our society has (if even present) both parents working 2 jobs each just to pay for some rundown shack, there is noone there to raise those kids but other kids and the media.. You can't have it both ways.. either you make sure all people can make a decent living, or you accept that your economic model requires some people to not have jobs.. thereby forcing them into a shitty life.. Pick one..

Our society has.. they choose to have the bulk of the population have a lot of nice things at the expense of a few million members of it's population..

The reason we don't let teachers discipline kids is because, as you pointed out, people are imperfect.. and there are teachers that use excessive force for one reason or another.. Some parents do that too.. so we have laws that try to protect children.. are kids today smart enough to occasionaly use that to their advantage and become hellions? sure.. but in general, when parents have the means to have reasonable interacion with their kids the kids end up in a decent position in life.. when parents aren't allowed to be present to raise their kids because they have to work so much that they can't be home, or if they are generations of drug addicted dirtbags, those kids are bound for truble.. Yeah.. let's blame those kids..

By this time the victim is a victim. The criminal is a victim of being excused their whole life because they were told they were a victim. And society is a victim. We have kids drinking and cracking at age 8 because we tolerate it not because it is inevitable.

 

I doubt that I will post to this topic again as I feel my point(s) have been well made.

 

PEACE

We have kids cracking at 8 because the place they are living sucks so bad that cracking is an acceptable thing for them to do (in their minds if nothing else). No one (who's reasonable) 'tolerates' children cracking at 8, we just don't give a shit if it's a few kids in the projects.. that is, until it's time to drive past one of those neighborhoods and we get carjacked.. then we cry like little bit*hes about how things are so terrible, yet have no interest in working the actual problem..

No, we don't agree.. it's not that I don't see it, it's that you have no friggin idea what you are talking about.. First you say people should have no rights in prison, then you say you are for reform and rehabilitation? Make up your friggn mind.. Course, on closer examination, you talk about 'reform' which doesn't take a stand one way or the other on 'rehabilitation'.. reform cuts both ways.. How about you make a final statement about if you are for prisoners being 'rehabilitated' or having all their rights removed and just dropped in a cage.. define your interpritation of 'reform'..

Until you manage to form a decent argument/dabate/position, don't bother replying.. I'm getting tired of your shadowy banter that leads nowhere and is full of 1/2 statements designed to try and sway the simple of mind to your side.. When you think you are ready for a real debate on points and merits, let me know.. Your last few posts have not offered one bit of decent or reasonable substantiation to support your opinions or your accusations.. You just keep saying how society is not to blame and how it's the fault of the individual, yet when I show a reasonable idea as to why they are where they are, you just repeat yourself.. "it's the fault of the individual, society has nothing to do with it.... it's the fault of the individual, society has nothing to do with it..".. then show me how society is removed from blame .. how our society doesn't require people to be on the bottom of the scale so others can be on the top.. and we can have a fat-huge middle class.. most of whom are no better than those in the gutter but figure they deserve what they have and thereby figure those on the bottom did it to themselves.. Kind of like the Kings of old figured god meant for them to rule and the peasants were meant for their entertainment..

That's called Archaic... Time to step into the modern times and look at the problems associated with it.. stop hiding your head in the sand and trying to comfort yourself as blameless.. we all take part in the suffering of the bottom of the class stucture, we all should be trying to help change it.. Only a few have most of the money and should probably give some of that to help, the rest of us should be openminded enough to realize we contribute to the suffering and defend the rights of those that are being abused by the system.. Should we tolerate attacks against citizens? no.. should we at least TRY to help the attackers see that they don't have to be like that? YES.. that's the entire idea of rehabilitation in the prison system..

Geez.. why do I keep being so long winded when it's wasted breath? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[97dakota 10+ year member]

alright, I am back, just a yes or no answer on these question no reasons, just yes or no. easy enough.

1. do you believe in rehabilitation in prisons.

2. do you know how long these rehabilitation programs have been in effect.

3. do you feel that it is society's fault that the old lady walking down the street is shot innocently.

4. do you feel that rehabiltation programs work.

5. do you realize how many of the rehabilitated scum continue to break the law.

and the last question.

savant, if every year the government asked each tax paying citizen if the would rather have there money sent to prison rehabilitation programs or returned to you which would you choose. just yes of no.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by 97dakota alright, I am back, just a yes or no answer on these question no reasons, just yes or no. easy enough.

 

1. do you believe in rehabilitation in prisons.

 

Is there a decent rehabilitation system in place now? I doubt it, but not posative.. Do I think we NEED a good rehabilitation system in our prisons to help reduce repeat offenders? YES..

2. do you know how long these rehabilitation programs have been in effect.

Not long enough, if they are present.. As I understand it there is pretty much a minimalist attempt at 'rehabilitation'.. things like an access to a GED is considered access to rehabilitation, but I don't think that is enough..

3. do you feel that it is society's fault that the old lady walking down the street is shot innocently.

This isn't a 'yes or no' question.. There are people of all walks of life that are "innocent bystanders".. is that societies fault? not directly, as such.. Do I think a lot of "innocent bystanders" in bad neighborhoods are casualties of a war based on actions of "society"? yes..

4. do you feel that rehabiltation programs work.

Again, depends on what you mean.. I think a rehabilitation program could have seriously good beneifits if they are implimented properly.. Is that happening now? I don't directly know..

5. do you realize how many of the rehabilitated scum continue to break the law.

Na, that's not a biased statement .. Again, it depends on the true nature and implimentation of rehabilitation.. I don't really think our current system is based on actually trying to let people have what they need to "fix themselves", it's more based on bleeding as much money out of the government as they can, like any other business.. The very nature of "rehabilitation" means there is an honest effort to try and better someone that needs the help.. I don't really think that happens in our current system.. The rate of recidivism for non-****** crimes is not that high.. From what I gather, most 'repeat offenders' get convicted of a different crime, normally something harder than the original offense.. I could be wrong though //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

and the last question.

 

savant, if every year the government asked each tax paying citizen if the would rather have there money sent to prison rehabilitation programs or returned to you which would you choose. just yes of no.

Again, not a yes or no.. it's a let take or get back.. and, if the gov would give a break down of it's expendetures, there is a very good chance I'd say "give".. keep in mind that I think it's pathetic that they ask me to donate a dollar to the presidential election fund when all of the candadates are usually multi-millionares..

As a point of note, do you realize that the current state of affairs with the Iraq situation can cost us over $50 BILLION dollars, just to have some of those countries let us put planes/troops on their land? By contrast, our prison system gets less than $100 million a year (if I recall correctly what I read a few weeks ago).. With ~250 million people in the country, I'd be happy to over DOUBLE what goes to trying to educate/rehabilitate criminals if it meant only $1 per person in this country..

As for the government asking us where our money goes, we get no say (other than our elected officials, which might not be the person that got the most votes).. All we can do is hope like hell that once we put people in office that they keep the general populous in mind.. course, that isn't what happens.. but..

k.. you asked for "yes/no" answers, and I've walked past that //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif I'll shut up now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[CarAudioAddict 10+ year member]

Originally posted by 97dakota alright, I am back, just a yes or no answer on these question no reasons, just yes or no. easy enough.

 

1. do you believe in rehabilitation in prisons.

 

2. do you know how long these rehabilitation programs have been in effect.

 

3. do you feel that it is society's fault that the old lady walking down the street is shot innocently.

 

4. do you feel that rehabiltation programs work.

 

5. do you realize how many of the rehabilitated scum continue to break the law.

1. Yes, rehhabilitation is needed to help turn these people into productive members of society

2. The programs have been in effect since the current prison system was instituted. Does the current rehab program work? NO

3. This is both yes and no.

4. NO NO NO NO. If it worked we wouldn't have so many repeat offenders

5. Right now, more than 2/3 of the people released from prison will be back before 1 year is out.

A few comments on the previous argument.

IN the real world, not everyone has the same oppertunities. The children of a family living on 5,000/year doesn't have the same oppertunities as the children of someone making 50,000/year. An unfortununate sideeffect of capitolism.

In prison, however, all criminals have access to the same education, rehabilition, etc. But how many of theese people know they need help, and even those that do know, do they realize when oppurtunity is knocking?

Thats another thing that should be taught to people in prison, is how to recognize oppertunity.

We live in a democratic-capitalist society (Both US and Canada), in which you have drastic diferences between the high and low ends of the ladder. People at the high end have power, control, and oppertunity(sp), while those at the low end are constantly fighting just to live. It is in no way fair (once you take ALL factors into consideration) especially with those who don't get off on the right foot.

People end up in prison because they made wrong choices in life (whether it be because of Society, or the person involved knowingly(sp) made the wrong choice, or other reason). What prison should do, is help the person recognize what choices they made in life that led them to where they are, and help them to correct these mistakes.

Now, some people just can't be helped, whether it be from a mental imbalance, physical problem, or whatever. These people should be isolated from society, but not treated as scum. They deserve a good life, but due to their "imperfections" are not able to earn one (although many people who live a good life never earned it).

There are many factors to take into consideration, many of which cannot be proven with facts and science, when trying to see why people become criminals (mental stability, physical condtion, genetics, IQ, upbringing, education, etc.). Many people just never had a chance to make it in society, should these people be treated as wortheless?

Earlier, someone mentioned that many repeat offenders keep getting areested because they have it better in prison. This is true. Where would you rather live, in a cardboard box with no heat, water, food, or even a bed - or rather in a warm, dry place with three square meals a day, sattelite TV, Game rooms, Weight lifting, and any labor that you do, you get paid for, minimum wage even. The **** stories are highly exaggerated, especially since you are allowed congugal(sp) visits, at least in Canada (one of my friends spent most of the 20 years in prison, and only ever had seen that happen once). So yeah they have it much better in prison than in society.

What prison should be is, a place where you get just barely enough to live, and an education to help turn you around. No beds, no entertainment, No weights, Just life, and edecation. That way it is much better in society (less repeat offenders), and those that commit crimes get the tools to help you get "on your feet" (The govt helped my friend get a job when he was released).

I think this is my longest post yet.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by CarAudioAddict Earlier, someone mentioned that many repeat offenders keep getting areested because they have it better in prison. This is true. Where would you rather live, in a cardboard box with no heat, water, food, or even a bed - or rather in a warm, dry place with three square meals a day, sattelite TV, Game rooms, Weight lifting, and any labor that you do, you get paid for, minimum wage even. The **** stories are highly exaggerated, especially since you are allowed congugal(sp) visits, at least in Canada (one of my friends spent most of the 20 years in prison, and only ever had seen that happen once). So yeah they have it much better in prison than in society.

You are not taking into account that you have guys in prison that don't have wives.. they don't get congugal visits.. they get a bit*h in their cell block.. Just because someone doesn't see it often, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.. and I would be willing to bet it has a lot to do with which prison you are in and what population you get stuck with.. Not to mention, being ***** once is once to many.. And the fear from knowing it could happen at any time will go a long way to helping someone become even more dangerous and unstable..

What prison should be is, a place where you get just barely enough to live, and an education to help turn you around. No beds, no entertainment, No weights, Just life, and edecation. That way it is much better in society (less repeat offenders), and those that commit crimes get the tools to help you get "on your feet" (The govt helped my friend get a job when he was released).

As I pointed out earlier.. The more you treat someone like a caged animal the more they are going to act like an animal.. not a good idea with someone that already is more primal and out of control than the general public.. And, do you really think anyone is going to be open to suggestion and education under conditions like that?

The government in the US doesn't do much to help ex-cons get jobs.. and most of the jobs they get aren't going to pay well enough to survive on..

You also said that you believe these criminals are 'street people living in boxes', and prison is such a better place that they would rather be there than on the streets.. Sorry, that's just BS.. Most criminals are either drug offenders (selling/buying etc) and have a place to live, tv to watch, plenty of drugs to use for an escape, etc.. Prison is NOT where they want to be.. No one 'wants' to be someplace where you can't do what you want when you want.. That's 1/2 the idea behind prison.. you loose a lot of freedoms (one being choices about a lot of thing in your life).. The violent offenders that end up in prison are normally "homeless" either.. they are just violent people with little to no self control.. They don't want to be in prison either.. I would submit that there is, at best, a miniscule number of prisoners that actually wanted to go to prison to improve their physical environment, if any at all..

The bottom line is, if you treat a human like an animal, you will gaurentee they act like an animal.. If you want a human to act human, you have to treat them like a human.. Especially when you are trying to convince them that the way they were behaving isn't the only way to be.. It's all part of the "show me don't snow me" idea..

*shrug*