Old man question of the day... (covers multiple topics: amps, subs and wiring)

[phenryiv1 10+ year member]

Well, I am willing to admit that I am old. I am old and have had my heyday in car audio, back in the 1990s when 2 punch 12s and an Punch 200ix DSM amp was all that a boy could dream of for bass...and when my hearing was something that would never go away.

Well, times have changed, and so have my goals for a stereo. I went with straight stock for years, but I am finally putting together what will look like a total beginner system in my 2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R SpecV. I listen to a lot of radio (like I said, I am old) including talk radio, but my musical taste is mostly rock and alternative (think all the way from John Mayer/Jason Mraz through Nine Inch Nails/Linkin Park).

For a sub, I want something that only uses the tiniest fraction of my trunk, and I want to limit the use of amplifiers due to space constraints. I actually HAVE an old RF 100a2 amp, but just don't want to have wires running everywhere. That is my MAIN reason for this thread- minimizing the impact of my install while maximizing my gains.

Where I stand is that I have an old amplified 8" Bazooka (okay, groan now) that I was going to use for a little bass. HOWEVER, I also have a lot of new tools and would not mind building a small box for an 8" or 10” sub that I could tuck away in a corner of the trunk. The problem is that this requires that I add an amp, and I really hate the thought of doing that, mostly because of all of the wires running around. Call me lazy, but I am having trouble justifying it, given my listening tastes. Also, I need my trunk space, and with a new baby I don't want to have a huge sub box and tons of bass. I just want clean, rounded-out sound.

As for the rest of my system, I have selected a Pioneer Premier DEH-P580MP for the HU, and will be going with some sort of 6.5" coaxial or component setup for the front doors, with some 6.5"s in the rear deck. If I DO use an amp for components and an 8"/10" sub, I will be using a 4-channel amp (2 channels bridged) and will use the other 2 channels for components. If end up using the Bazooka, I MAY roll the dice and try to run components off of the HU, or I may use the 100a2.

So here is the question: Do I just run the Bazooka that I have and see how it sounds with the other speakers installed, or do I **** it up, run the wiring, and not look back? Next, if I DO use a component subwoofer, what is a good, efficient 8" or 10” that sounds okay in a small box?

A second question- what is my best bet for 12V+? Do I run an 8 gauge and split it to a small amp for the components and to the Bazooka, or do I need to run 4 gauge to run a 50w RMS amp and a Bazooka? Is 8 gauge sufficient if I do a 4-channel amp that pushes about 200-250 RMS?

The run will not be that long, so I am hoping that voltage drop will not be too bad.

Click to read more...

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

Here's an idea... instead of putting 6.5 coaxes in the rear deck or something, look into a pair of these. They'll add a decent kick to your system- just as much as an 8" or 10" sub in the trunk.

If I were you, I'd just run some 4awg to the back and call it a day. Then, use a distrobution block and split between the two amps.

edit: BTW, I have the tang band 6x9 subs in my front doors, and they're very clean. Tang Band makes an awesome speaker

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

Here's what I'd suggest: get an amp like this to run your entire system. The 100x2 and 80x2 will be more than enough to run a set of components and the 6.5" subs, and the amp doesn't cost that much. I know most people frown upon LA, but their Strike and Storm lines are pretty nice.

 

[Prowler573 5,000+ posts]

If you go with a component set you're going to want to go with an outboard amp to drive them. The performance that they are capable of just will not be realized running them off of deck power and you'll ultimately be disappointed with your expenditure. (no one wants that, do they?)

I'm not particularly impressed with Bazooka's gear which for me is sad to say as SASBazooka is based in my state's capitol. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif Having said that I think you'll possibly want to look into something like a SoundSplinter RL-i 8" sub (details on said driver found here) It's works well in a small enclosure and can be acquired with a single 4 Ohm voice coil as to be able to best utilize the power from 2 channels of a 4 channel amp bridged to a mono output (assuming you'd use the other two channels for your component set)

I know you're trying to avoid the necessity of running a bunch of wiring all over the car but aside from the speaker wire were you to use that amplified Bazooka you'd still have to provide it with power, ground, remote activation, and signal transfer (RCA interconnects) cables. Going with an outboard amp and a component sub really isn't going to present you with much more compication than using that Bazooka tube would in my opinion.

 

[phenryiv1 10+ year member]

Here's an idea... instead of putting 6.5 coaxes in the rear deck or something, look into a pair of these. They'll add a decent kick to your system- just as much as an 8" or 10" sub in the trunk.
If I were you, I'd just run some 4awg to the back and call it a day. Then, use a distrobution block and split between the two amps.

edit: BTW, I have the tang band 6x9 subs in my front doors, and they're very clean. Tang Band makes an awesome speaker

Can the tang band SW be used in a free-air application? I could not tell from the specs, and I long ago forgot how to interpret TS parameters.

I do worry about flex in the rear deck if one or more of those are used, but I may be able to reinforce it from the bottom. I could possibly use a 1/4"-1/2" MDF ring on the top and a 1/4" ring on the bottom, then bottom mount the speaker and sandwich a piece of 3/4" mdf with a cutout for the basket ring below the deck. I may even be able to make a small enclosure that way...

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Can you fiberglass?

Are you Willing to learn?

A single Assasin 10 sealed in a small fiberglass enclosure would fit your bill great!

http://www.Ascendantaudio.com

Depending on your budget you may even want to look into a BM 10".

http://www.Stereointegrity.com

It seems as though you arent looking for perfect sound staging and only something with good clarity and a reletively flat responce (talk radio isnt exactly audiophile approved from the Stereo gods). A good pair of Co-Axils in the front will fit your bill fine. Pioneer REV's have a good reputation as do Kicker's KS series.

Your best bet for an amp is to get a good 4 channel amplifier and run your Co-Axils on it and your subwoofer on it. This will provide better clarity on your co-axils and good bass for your subwoofer. Depending on your budget you may want to look into something like a Hifonics ZX-4400 or if you want to spend more and get more/cleaner power get something like a Sundown SAX 100.4.

http://www.Sundownaudio.com

If you give us a Maximum budget for Enclosure, Subwoofer, Co-Axil, and Wiring we can give you a better idea of what you might want.

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

I believe they'll be okay free air. Although you could build a small enclosure behind them on the rear deck, which would still take up nearly none of your cargo room.

 

[phenryiv1 10+ year member]

If you go with a component set you're going to want to go with an outboard amp to drive them. The performance that they are capable of just will not be realized running them off of deck power and you'll ultimately be disappointed with your expenditure. (no one wants that, do they?)
I'm not particularly impressed with Bazooka's gear which for me is sad to say as SASBazooka is based in my state's capitol. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif Having said that I think you'll possibly want to look into something like a SoundSplinter RL-i 8" sub (details on said driver found here) It's works well in a small enclosure and can be acquired with a single 4 Ohm voice coil as to be able to best utilize the power from 2 channels of a 4 channel amp bridged to a mono output (assuming you'd use the other two channels for your component set)

I know you're trying to avoid the necessity of running a bunch of wiring all over the car but aside from the speaker wire were you to use that amplified Bazooka you'd still have to provide it with power, ground, remote activation, and signal transfer (RCA interconnects) cables. Going with an outboard amp and a component sub really isn't going to present you with much more compication than using that Bazooka tube would in my opinion.

Good points, particularly about the runs of wire and about maximizing the investment of buying components in the first place. It seems like a waste to buy them and not amp the correctly.

Regarding wiring, since the 580MP has sub x-over and level control, I will need 2 runs of RCA to take full advantage of that, btu that is not a big deal.

I like the look of that 8" driver- where can I find pricing specs? .2'^3 looks good to me as well...what kinds of power will I need with it?

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

You'd be better off investing in a good amp and good wiring than lower end Componets...

 

[phenryiv1 10+ year member]

Can you fiberglass?Are you Willing to learn?

No, Yes. I have looked into it and the application of making a corner-mounted 'glass and MDF enclosure.

It seems as though you arent looking for perfect sound staging and only something with good clarity and a reletively flat responce (talk radio isnt exactly audiophile approved from the Stereo gods). A good pair of Co-Axils in the front will fit your bill fine. Pioneer REV's have a good reputation as do Kicker's KS series.

Ha ha- no, talk radio is not an audiophile's paradise. I can imagine that if forums like this were popular when I was into stereos, I would not have had much patience for a person with goals/restrictions like myself, which is what makes the info and help in this thread so good.

The REVs are at the top of my list, whether I go with coaxials or components. I have heard nothing be great things about them. My concern with coaxials in the front is that the car has fairly good staging (for a poo-poo stock system) given the low a-pillar mounting of the OEM tweeters. I have NOT looked into the difficulty of replaceing them with aftermarket tweets. It could be easy; it could take hours...and it could be a pain in the @$$ to get the REV tweets to actually FIT in that location.

Given that, your suggestion of running a set of coaxials like the REVs is well-founded, but I have not had a car without component tweeters in YEARS (my maximas and my silverado, then my sentra all have oem "components," and prior to that I ran all aftermarket components). I cannot think of the last time I actually had coaxials. I cannot remember how it SOUNDS to have components low in the doors. Can I still get decent staging from that location? Logic says that I can, but that the soundstage will be lower than if I had component tweets to supplement them.

Your best bet for an amp is to get a good 4 channel amplifier and run your Co-Axils on it and your subwoofer on it. This will provide better clarity on your co-axils and good bass for your subwoofer.

Could I (and I ask this will respect for all of the information that everyone has so far provided) select and install my speakers and run them off of the amp that I already have, while running the Bazooka, and THEN in a few months upgrade the amp to a 4-channel AND at the same time add the component subwoofer?

If you give us a Maximum budget for Enclosure, Subwoofer, Co-Axil, and Wiring we can give you a better idea of what you might want.

Budget for enclosure=free- I have about a grand worth of tools, and am pretty good with them. I have about 25-30 enclosure builds under my belt, and to give you an idea of my woodworking skills, last month I built this:

(I built the room it is in as well, but I am speaking of the bookcase).

Anyway, building an enclosure is no problem. Fiberglassing one might be a challenge that I can work on while running the Bazooka...I just cannot afford VEHICLE downtime, and it is COLD in WV.

Budget for speakers: The REVs are $100, anything more than that needs to clearly oputperform them. If I do components, the REVs are $150-160, with the same deal. More $ needs to clearly sound better.

For the sub, I really don't know. I don't know what a good sub costs, but I have a couple hundred that I can spend, depending on how much the components cost, and on how I space/spread out the costs. I can even buy a 4-channel amp and use it for the front stage and keep running the Bazooka (leaving 2 channels of the amp idle, OR bridging them and dialing back the gains).

As for wiring, I have a LOT of RCAs and 8 gauge power wire. I actually have 8 gauge already run to the trunk. What kind of wattage can a single 8-gauge run handle? Assume a 15 foot run. I could step up to 4 gauge, but with a single amp, MOST amps that I have seen with up to 200 watts (50 per channel, RMS) don't even accept 4-gauge imput/ground. Maybe times have changed, but that is how it was in the 90s (LOL). I also have about 50' of 14gauge speaker wire, which I THINK should be fine for front stage. Let me know it is is not.

I need to see home much $$$ I have squirrled away, because with a new baby and Christmas comig up, this is not the best time to try to upgrade but my thinking is to at LEAST get the front stage speakers that I want and to at LEAST use the existing 100a2 amp for now, laying the groundwork for future upgrades. That includes the right signal runs and the right power cables, plus the speaker wire to the front stage.

 

[phenryiv1 10+ year member]

You'd be better off investing in a good amp and good wiring than lower end Componets...

Can you explain "good wiring?" Maybe the technology has changed in my absence, but I never had any interference with my older RCAs...

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

In good wiring I mean good RCA's and 4ga or larger power/ground. Running wire is a PITA in some cars so better to do it with excess the first time and not have to do it 2 or 3 times.

For componets, $150 isnt going to get you very far. Kicker's low end componets off of the internet or a pair of low end CDT's maybe. Lower end Alpines perhaps as well. You arent going to get anything spectacular with tons of midbass for $150 UNLESS you build your own. If you are proficeent with soldering I would go as far as to say get a good pair of midbasses for ~$80 such as Dayton Reference series or perhaps Ascendant's Poly 6.5's. Then pick up a good pair of tweeters for $60 or so such as a pair of Rainbow silt tweeters or Vifa tweeters. $30 for some componets for a passive Xover and you are in business. This is only if you are comfertable designing and soldering your own passive Xover.

For a subwoofer, The two I reccomended are both great. The Assasins are probably best budget bang for buck woofers I've ever ysed. I have two in a Decware Design wicked one in my GF's Camry with 200w and they pound.

The BM will run you around $200 and the Assasin around $60 shipped. There are some in between such as the Sound Splinter Rl-i.

http://www.SoundSplinter.com

All of the mentioned companies are upstanding and I have delt with Stereo Intergrity and Ascendant personally on more than one occasion.

As far as fiberglassing goes, it is reletively easy. If you are reletively proficent with carpeting you can get a stock looking subwoofer for $50. A quart of resin, some 6oz cloth, some 6oz Mat, Masking tape, Some Fleece and Bondo along with scrap MDF and you are good to go. A small, sealed subwoofer enclosure is a great fiberglassing kick off project. Google Fiberglass tutorials and search on this website and on SoundSolutionsAudio.com and you will get a great idea of how to do it, then just dive in with some planning. If you have a digital camera post pictures and we will help you to get the best enclosure you can.

If you have an amp to hold you off untill you can afford something better that is fine. But in the end you will want something like the SAX 100.4 because it has plenty of power and the ability to go active if you ever wanted to later on buy an independant amp for your subwoofer.

As far as wireing goes, run at least 4 ga, 2 or even 1/0 if you can. Buy a distrobution block. In the future, if you want to upgrade to two seperate amps, you wont have to run any more wire. Get some good RCA's such as KnuKoncepts will keep the noise down and give you optimal clarity.

http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=RCA%20Interconnects

When it comes to speaker wire just go to Wal-Mart and buy a 50ft roll of 12ga. It is plenty flexable and there will be no sonic difference.

Now time for the fun stuff. Here is a system I would be looking at if I where you.

Midbass:

Dayton Reference 7" Midbass $65

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-374

Tweeters:

Vifa 1" Silk Dome (they make one with out the home audio flange) $45

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-524

Xover: $30 in Materials

Subwoofer:

Stereo Integrity BM 10" $240

Contact Ben@low-Hz.com or Nick@stereointegrity.com

Subwoofer Enclosure:

-Resin $15

-Cloth $7

-Mat $7

-Tape $3

-Brush $3

-Bondo $10

-Sand Paper $5

-Carpet & Adheasive $15

-Total- $65

Amp:

Sundown Audio SAX 100.4 $325

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7704

Wire:

-25' 1/0 $50

-12ga Speaker Wire $15

-Knu Klarity Cables $15

-Distrobution block $15

-Total- $95

Total: $865

That would actually be an excelent SQ system barring good install, you may even want to bite the bullet and do a 12" sealed or port the 10".

 

[6spdcoupe 5,000+ posts]

You havent tried to get any info from the .orgY?

 

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

I think CB has some good advice.

I've got a pair of the REV coax's and really like them and they get plenty loud when needed. Haven't heard the REV comps though. Also put a pair of the Assassin 8's in the GF's car. Wanted 10's but they were out the day I stopped in. VERY happy with those subs and they take up little trunk space.

I've got an Altima and a Sentra is pretty much the same car and VERY easy to run wires to the back, so you're install will be very clean and not hard.

Good luck from another "old" guy //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[phenryiv1 10+ year member]

In good wiring I mean good RCA's and 4ga or larger power/ground. Running wire is a PITA in some cars so better to do it with excess the first time and not have to do it 2 or 3 times. As far as wireing goes, run at least 4 ga, 2 or even 1/0 if you can. Buy a distrobution block. In the future, if you want to upgrade to two seperate amps, you wont have to run any more wire.

I sincerely doubt that I will run 2 amps, btu that is always a possability, if I go crazy. Like I said, I doubt it, but it could happen. I am more likely to sell the car before that happens. Speaking to specific gauges of wire, will a 4 gauge actually fit in the terminals of most amps? Let's assume that I will only run ONE amp, ever. If I run 4 gauge, will it fit in the terminals? And is there a chart where I can see how many watts a particular gauge of wire can support, over a given length?

Get some good RCA's such as KnuKoncepts will keep the noise down and give you optimal clarity.
http://www.knukonceptz.com/productMaster.cfm?Category=RCA%20Interconnects

I'll look into those for sure.

When it comes to speaker wire just go to Wal-Mart and buy a 50ft roll of 12ga. It is plenty flexable and there will be no sonic difference.

I have a roll of 14 gauge. Is this enough for components? If it will really make a difference, I can get 12, but it seems like a shame to waste a whole roll of 14 if I have it. I will obviously use 12 for the sub.

For componets, $150 isnt going to get you very far. Kicker's low end componets off of the internet or a pair of low end CDT's maybe. Lower end Alpines perhaps as well. You arent going to get anything spectacular with tons of midbass for $150 UNLESS you build your own. If you are proficeent with soldering I would go as far as to say get a good pair of midbasses for ~$80 such as Dayton Reference series or perhaps Ascendant's Poly 6.5's. Then pick up a good pair of tweeters for $60 or so such as a pair of Rainbow silt tweeters or Vifa tweeters. $30 for some componets for a passive Xover and you are in business. This is only if you are comfertable designing and soldering your own passive Xover.

The Daytons are too deep. Even with a spacer, I have an absolute limit of a 2.5" speaker mounting depth for my mids. The Daytons are 3." I will look at the other ones. I remeber hearing a car with Vifas a while back, and they were sweet. I also need to see if they will fit in the stock location. Since I may trade in in a few months (this summer, hopefully), I want to be able to go back to stock.

For a subwoofer, The two I reccomended are both great. The Assasins are probably best budget bang for buck woofers I've ever ysed. I have two in a Decware Design wicked one in my GF's Camry with 200w and they pound.
The BM will run you around $200 and the Assasin around $60 shipped. There are some in between such as the Sound Splinter Rl-i.

http://www.SoundSplinter.com

All of the mentioned companies are upstanding and I have delt with Stereo Intergrity and Ascendant personally on more than one occasion.

The Assassian looks good on paper. I like the box size requirements- and the price.

As far as fiberglassing goes, it is reletively easy. If you are reletively proficent with carpeting you can get a stock looking subwoofer for $50. A quart of resin, some 6oz cloth, some 6oz Mat, Masking tape, Some Fleece and Bondo along with scrap MDF and you are good to go. A small, sealed subwoofer enclosure is a great fiberglassing kick off project. Google Fiberglass tutorials and search on this website and on SoundSolutionsAudio.com and you will get a great idea of how to do it, then just dive in with some planning. If you have a digital camera post pictures and we will help you to get the best enclosure you can.

It looks daunting, but people have figured it out, so I am sure that I can as well, with patience and a good tutorial.

Now time for the fun stuff. Here is a system I would be looking at if I where you.
Midbass:

Dayton Reference 7" Midbass $65

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-374

Tweeters:

Vifa 1" Silk Dome (they make one with out the home audio flange) $45

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-524

Xover: $30 in Materials

Subwoofer:

Stereo Integrity BM 10" $240

Contact Ben@low-Hz.com or Nick@stereointegrity.com

Subwoofer Enclosure:

-Resin $15

-Cloth $7

-Mat $7

-Tape $3

-Brush $3

-Bondo $10

-Sand Paper $5

-Carpet & Adheasive $15

-Total- $65

Amp:

Sundown Audio SAX 100.4 $325

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7704

Wire:

-25' 1/0 $50

-12ga Speaker Wire $15

-Knu Klarity Cables $15

-Distrobution block $15

-Total- $95

Total: $865

That would actually be an excelent SQ system barring good install, you may even want to bite the bullet and do a 12" sealed or port the 10".

I have had sealed and ported enclosures, and I really like a properly-powered sealed enclosure. I have had good luck with small, well-powered subs with quick response times.