New AA SMD Woofer

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I like what I like.
nG

Our moms. Who can blame you.

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

INdeed.

nG

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

Im confused how a motor having linear BL response would be equated to any form of frequency response (playing 'flat'). Distortion (in this case BL distortion) and frequency response are two different issues. Are we to ignore driver suspension, enclosure size/type/alignment, and the system's environment? Even if an anechoic situation were being discussed, driver suspension and enclosure must still be considered when discussing frequency response (playing flat). But on the topic of linear BL response and how that affects distortion, the driver suspension, enclosure and environment play almost no role what so ever. So again Im confused how these two seperate topics seemed to have become so intermingled in this discussion.
I find it impossible to argue against Neil's point that in a sound quality system the speaker's responsibility, and really the entire system's, is to reproduce the recording as accurately as possible. Not to be 'pleasing'. Pleasing is a subjective term. My cousin's RoadMasters are 'pleasing' to his ears. Who gets to define what is pleasing? The speaker designer? The listener? Which listener?

I agree that a system set flat tends to sound dead. But why is that? If we set up a system that outputs no audible distortion, and is able to play every frequency with equal authority, why does paying music through such a system not sound 'alive'? We have some psychoacoustic experts in here, wtf is up with that? Why must certain frequency ranges be boosted or cut in order for the reproduction to sound accurate to the original? Has anyone tested to find out if this also holds true for spoken recordings, not just music?

Its amazing having someone EQ their stereo till they think they have it sounding 'accurate' (in terms of frequency response) and then turn on some talk radio and see how bad it sounds. Our brain doesn't know how music is suppose to sound nearly as well as it does simple spoken language. Its much easier to pick up on many cues when listening to simple speaking. But try tuning your system on talk radio alone, and then turn on some music and see how you like it. I think this will demonstrate just how much the problem with 'accuracy' most times is not with the speakers, or the EQ's settings, but with the ears/brains listening to the reproduction.

At the end of the day it is nothing more then the classic saying of "Beauty...is in the eye of the beholder." is the best way to describe it...

Humans by nature do not like a flat response...it's not 'real' to us. Mainly because from a sociology and psychology aspect we are taught different from day one. Take rattles, squeaky toys, bells etc. They all have a VERY peaky response; whether it be metallic in nature or whatever it is an intensity of a very hard peak and a decently steep roll off to nothing. It is not like you have a volume set on a CD player at 3, turn the amp on..it plays volume 3 of the cow going 'ooo' and then it's turned off. So it starts at X frequency at Y amplitude and ends at X frequency and Y amplitude. But it is how we identify objects by sound. We are taught from a young age that a cow goes 'mooo'. Now if we were taught that a cow goes 'meeow' from an early age then we would always associate that noise, with a cow. Anyhow; there is a difference in a flat response...and an accurate response with respect to a recording. Flat is seen as lifeless..it changes none..it isn't dynamic..it's pretty much seen as 'weak'. Not a single concert i've ever been too has been remotely close to 'flat'..all have been very very dynamic. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

There is simply too vague of a definition of what 'linear' is within this context. Is it the motor? Is it the suspension? Is it the entire moving assembly that stays linear through full stroke? Are there any breakup modes? Is it a linear frequency response that is flat?

Linear..in and of itself...is a really loosely used term within the context of this conversation.

Some associates of mine are actually working on a study of how we identify objects with sound. What makes a helicopter a helicopter? How do we identify that sound as what it is? How do we simply know that a train horn makes a sound...and we immediately associate it with a train? Or a banjo string being plucked...easily and always identified as the distinct sound that a banjo makes.

It's a very complex math equation that the engineers in the lab really get into. But it's really weird because we don't have a definitive answer for it as of yet...there simply isn't an answer to the 'why'. Mathematically at least, we can easily identify it with Sociology and Psychology and how we are taught as...a cow goes 'mooo' and what not...but as far as a definitive mathematical scientific answer as to why we perceive what we perceive...we simply don't know yet.

Maybe one day!

 

[kbkid 10+ year member]

Nick seems to enjoy the psychoacoustics discussion.

 

[Kyle_Keating 10+ year member]

Precisely //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif.


Thanks, we'll make use of it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Did you buy it from Crossfire, because as far as i know they owned the US patent last, or at least gave a lot of money for it at the auction.

?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Anyhow; there is a difference in a flat response...and an accurate response with respect to a recording. Flat is seen as lifeless..it changes none..it isn't dynamic..it's pretty much seen as 'weak'. Not a single concert i've ever been too has been remotely close to 'flat'..all have been very very dynamic. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

You are correct, every concert I have ever been to has been very dynamic, not 'flat'. But, Id rather rely on the signal to dictate my dynamics, not the speaker.
I think the term 'playing flat' is still being used for different meanings by different people in this thread. 'Plays flat' to me means given the proper input signal (a 'flat' signal), the stereo system will play every frequency with equal authority. play a sweep a 100 db, for example, and every single frequency hits 100.0 db's. Or it shows as flat on an RTA. This does not mean the system will reproduce a recording 'flat', it means the system is perfectly balanced in terms of output versus frequency.

Therefore, if a system will play 'flat'... all frequencies with equal authority... any dynamics in the recording should be accurately reproduced. But what seems to be most common as people's perception is that the recording is NOT being reproduced accurately unless the midbass is boosted, midrange cut, etc. This most certainly is NOT a problem with the speakers, the motor topology, or even the EQ settings... its a problem with perception.

I hate to bring a cliche into this argument, but tubes are a perfect example of perception driving our definition of accuracy. Many people enjoy the sound of tube driven amplifiers. Sit a non-enthusiast down in front of two setups, only differnce being one is tube driven and one is solid state. This person enjoys the 'warmth' the tube system offers, decies it sounds more 'alive', and therefore decides it must be more 'accurate'.

Now us being enthusiasts (and some of us professionals), we realize that the tube system is merely offering even-order harmonic distortion that many people find "pleasing" to the ear. But to someone who didn't know the facts, the setup that is actually displaying more distortion could easily be chosen as the more 'accurate' setup. Perception driving reality. And in reverse, knowledge driving understanding of accuracy.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Hey Nick, I've got a quick question for you. What is so different with the 18" 12 spoke basket that it needs to have a separate patent from the 8", 10", 12" and 15" versions? I would think they would all be covered under one patent but obviously not. Anyway, just a question out of pure curiosity.

 

[Kyle_Keating 10+ year member]

Hey Nick, I've got a quick question for you. What is so different with the 18" 12 spoke basket that it needs to have a separate patent from the 8", 10", 12" and 15" versions? I would think they would all be covered under one patent but obviously not. Anyway, just a question out of pure curiosity.

different design, different patent.

uno

http://www.google.com/patents?id=B-MIAAAAEBAJ&dq=%22tc+sounds%22+frame

dos

http://www.google.com/patents?id=9wcMAAAAEBAJ&dq=%22tc+sounds%22+frame

 

[snoopdan 5,000+ posts]

Poor ol' Kyle, still holding the torch for Thilo. Its bringing a tear to my eye //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[Kyle_Keating 10+ year member]

Poor ol' Kyle, still holding the torch for Thilo. Its bringing a tear to my eye //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

whoa.... keep it in one thread big guy, i cant bounce around all day.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

You are correct, every concert I have ever been to has been very dynamic, not 'flat'. But, Id rather rely on the signal to dictate my dynamics, not the speaker.
I think the term 'playing flat' is still being used for different meanings by different people in this thread. 'Plays flat' to me means given the proper input signal (a 'flat' signal), the stereo system will play every frequency with equal authority. play a sweep a 100 db, for example, and every single frequency hits 100.0 db's. Or it shows as flat on an RTA. This does not mean the system will reproduce a recording 'flat', it means the system is perfectly balanced in terms of output versus frequency.

Therefore, if a system will play 'flat'... all frequencies with equal authority... any dynamics in the recording should be accurately reproduced. But what seems to be most common as people's perception is that the recording is NOT being reproduced accurately unless the midbass is boosted, midrange cut, etc. This most certainly is NOT a problem with the speakers, the motor topology, or even the EQ settings... its a problem with perception.

Correct.

But think about this. If you have a woofer with literally No BL (8-12tm at most) Super high Qts, but it plays 'flat'....and is linear

How much of the transient response are you loosing? The kick drums? How much is..delayed..or simply, not there? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

Hey Nick, I've got a quick question for you. What is so different with the 18" 12 spoke basket that it needs to have a separate patent from the 8", 10", 12" and 15" versions? I would think they would all be covered under one patent but obviously not. Anyway, just a question out of pure curiosity.

We own the tooling on the 18" 12 spoke. The ones that were made years ago ran out...and the industry ran out of 18" 12 spoke baskets. We liked the basket, so we retooled it, and it's ours.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

Did you buy it from Crossfire, because as far as i know they owned the US patent last, or at least gave a lot of money for it at the auction.

?

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

We own the tooling on the 18" 12 spoke. The ones that were made years ago ran out...and the industry ran out of 18" 12 spoke baskets. We liked the basket, so we retooled it, and it's ours.

Ok, that makes more sense then.

 

[na_rsx 10+ year member]

http://www.powerbassusa.com/products/competition.html

HMMMMMMMmmmmmm??? Interesting

holy cow how did people miss this post!!! very interesting indeed!!!