New AA SMD Woofer

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I'm huge into acoustic based science, love the stuff! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Anyhow..let's think about this.

Things that are 100% "Flat" in response, to my ears..and how I perceive things..are totally lifeless, it has no form of dynamics, it has no 'umph' it sounds..dead. The vast majority of the population simply has no clue nor do they care what a 'flat response' is...when they finally do hear it, they do not like it..at all.

Big reason why I personally do not like xbl^2 equipped stuff, along with the lms...just sounds weird to me.

At the end of the day it all boils down to perception, and what the person who will be listening to music via the speaker(s) likes..

You can't take a fine gentleman from the dirty south such as Lil John and put him in a Symphony Orchestra and expect him to be enthralled with what he's hearing. He likes..loud..nasty..distorted...'crunk' music. This (crunk) is his social norm, this is what he is grown up on. Distortion, in his mind..is a good thing it is pleasing to him. Beethoven's 6th symphony would be nothing short of fingernails on a chalk board for this guy..it does not sound right to him, it is not pleasing, it is outside of his socially accepted norm.

Example two: You wouldn't take say Mr. Belvadere in his 3 piece black and white 2000 dollar suit and bow tie into a underground rap battle portrayed in the movie 8 mile...and expect him to be enthralled and 'live for the music'...he was raised on Beethoven's 6th symphony. Played live at his multi-million dollar mansion...the rap battle of highly distorted very loud music is outside of his social norm. So, therefore..making it unacceptable.

Regardless of what is accepted in society as the social norm is what will always outweigh any numbers or white papers or patented technology of why one number jockey says this one sounds better than this one does no matter what because it is 'flat'. Well...a few Hundred years ago, the world was flat and anybody who questioned it was out of their **** minds.

Prime example of this is my father sitting in a very well respected car in IASCA's top dog SQ class...he got out and was like..well..it sounds good..but it has no ***? I don't like it.

You can argue numbers, white papers, patents, and technology until your blue in the face of why this or that is 'better'. But, do not forget the fact that perception, at the end of the day...Will always reign supreme //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[mobeious 10+ year member]

i still dont understand how a internet forum guy can have his own subwoofer from a manufactor and i see now he has shirts and sweaters and hats u can buy from him and now woofers with his autograph on them lol its crazy i hope IRS kicks him in the ***.... so anyone with a loud setup and is on the internet can get a woofer ... i think tommy Mckinnie would have been a better choice .. lol he is louder duhhh

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

Things that are 100% "Flat" in response, to my ears..and how I perceive things..are totally lifeless, it has no form of dynamics, it has no 'umph' it sounds..dead. The vast majority of the population simply has no clue nor do they care what a 'flat response' is...when they finally do hear it, they do not like it..at all.

I do not believe that you or the population you reference has the knowledge or ability to decode information that would be required to prove that they actually do not like flat response. This is an unproven hypothesis. The response may have been flat, but again....that's simply a case of someone not being aware of all measurable observations that could affect someone's perception.

Big reason why I personally do not like xbl^2 equipped stuff, along with the lms...just sounds weird to me.

Now we can judge how something sounds only by its topology? That is the inference here. Have you heard and tested the LMS-Ultra?

Perception matters to you because you want to sell drivers. It's the same reason overhung is "good enough" for you. I want something that plays the music only; and from a logical standpoint, that is what makes sense. The fact that this is not the norm is irrelevant, unless your concern is only selling drivers.

This is not even about subjective vs objective. It is simply a defense of approaches that make real improvements to speaker design.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

I do not believe that you or the population you reference has the knowledge or ability to decode information that would be required to prove that they actually do not like flat response. This is an unproven hypothesis. The response may have been flat, but again....that's simply a case of someone not being aware of all measurable observations that could affect someone's perception.


Now we can judge how something sounds only by its topology? That is the inference here. Have you heard and tested the LMS-Ultra?

Perception matters to you because you want to sell drivers. It's the same reason overhung is "good enough" for you. I want something that plays the music only; and from a logical standpoint, that is what makes sense. The fact that this is not the norm is irrelevant, unless your concern is only selling drivers.

This is not even about subjective vs objective. It is simply a defense of approaches that make real improvements to speaker design.

Dude, i've been messing with XBL^2 since i was 15...since it's very conception i've been toying with it. I held the first Brahma 12 ever made in my hands and I listened to it. I do not like it. It is a topology that I do not like.

I do not like how it sounds. I do not like how the Brahma sounds, I do not like how the XXX sounds. I know what it sounds like. I do not like it.

Give me a straight gap, decently strong motor with a copper coil and the middle of the road Q with some decent xmax and i'm happy.

I've messed with the LMS stuff, I do not like it either. It is a matter of nothing more than personal preference and what I like. Ponte showed me the first graphs of this stuff back in 2002 or 2003 (cant remember) when he was working there with the 'ruler flat bl curve'. I was giddy as a 16 year old prom date when I got it thinking it was going to be the new revolution of what's going to be something amazing as ruler flat Bl...and i got my hands on one. I listened to it, I didn't like it. You might think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread..I however, don't. It sounds weird to me..

Come to find out it had a Q in the .7 range...a 10mm wide gap...and inductance that we won't even mention here..but by god it had ruler flat Bl...and I hated it.

If you change the way or style that somebody is supposed to listen to something, then you have changed how they would have perceived things had they have just done a blind test with no explanation of what is going on. If you make them aware of the observation then they will start listening for things or noticing things that they otherwise would not have. In marketing and marketing research it is known as dealing a 'loaded question'. In reference that you are trying to sway the individual or the respondent of the survey to lean a certain way. You should know better then that when collecting scientific observational data //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

You simply can argue until you are blue in the face about x, y and z technology. At the end of the day you can not tell me what I like, I know what I like, because it is my ears, and my perception. Not what your white paper says I 'should' be hearing. It just so happens that the vast majority of the population seems to think that it sounds pretty darn good as well...look at the top sq cars and see what kind of xbl^2 or LMS drivers they are running....

I'm willing to bet it's very few, and very very far between.

 

[PsychoTheRapist 5,000+ posts]

Ouch.

 

[mjf 10+ year member]

i still dont understand how a internet forum guy can have his own subwoofer from a manufactor and i see now he has shirts and sweaters and hats u can buy from him and now woofers with his autograph on them lol its crazy i hope IRS kicks him in the ***.... so anyone with a loud setup and is on the internet can get a woofer ... i think tommy Mckinnie would have been a better choice .. lol he is louder duhhh

anyone with enough money generally can get one of the many companies to OEM them something.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Dude, i've been messing with XBL^2 since i was 15...since it's very conception i've been toying with it. I held the first Brahma 12 ever made in my hands and I listened to it. I do not like it. It is a topology that I do not like.
I do not like how it sounds. I do not like how the Brahma sounds, I do not like how the XXX sounds. I know what it sounds like. I do not like it.

Give me a straight gap, decently strong motor with a copper coil and the middle of the road Q with some decent xmax and i'm happy.

I've messed with the LMS stuff, I do not like it either. It is personal preference. Ponte showed me the first graphs of this stuff back in 2002 or 2003 (cant remember) when he was working there with the 'ruler flat bl curve'. I was giddy as a 16 year old prom date when I got it thinking it was going to be the new revolution of what's going to be something amazing as ruler flat Bl...and i got my hands on one. I listened to it, I didn't like it. You might think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread..I however, don't. It sounds weird to me..

Come to find out it had a Q in the .7 range...a 10mm wide gap...and inductance that we won't even mention here..but by god it had ruler flat Bl...and I hated it.

If you change the way or style that somebody is supposed to listen to something, then you have changed how they would have perceived things had they have just done a blind test with no explanation of what is going on. If you make them aware of the observation then they will start listening for things or noticing things that they otherwise would not have. In marketing and marketing research it is known as dealing a 'loaded question'. In reference that you are trying to sway the individual or the respondent of the survey to lean a certain way. You should know better then that when collecting scientific observational data //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

You simply can argue until you are blue in the face about x, y and z technology. At the end of the day you can not tell me what I like, I know what I like, because it is my ears, and my perception. Not what your white paper says I 'should' be hearing. It just so happens that the vast majority of the population seems to think that it sounds pretty darn good as well...look at the top sq cars and see what kind of xbl^2 or LMS drivers they are running....

I'm willing to bet it's very few, and very very far between.

I'm sorry but just because you like something that is colored by the distortions of an inferior driver does not make it the better driver.

Also, if you want to talk about inductance let's see the inductance numbers of Fi's line-up, I'd be willing to bet they are pretty high as not a single one of your products uses any sort of inductance reducing or linearization method.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

I'm sorry but just because you like something that is colored by the distortions of an inferior driver does not make it the better driver.
Also, if you want to talk about inductance let's see the inductance numbers of Fi's line-up, I'd be willing to bet they are pretty high as not a single one of your products uses any sort of inductance reducing or linearization method.

Tell me then grand master of the loudspeaker cookbook.

At what mH does inductance start to kick in at say a given 80Hz? And causes a roll off in response? There's a LOT more that goes into something than just shooting for low inductance. It's called DAF, if you shoot for really low inductance and rate something at a given 1000 watt power rating you end up with a very very short 4 layer coil that yes, has very low inductance. But what happens when the vast majority of your target market and your customers abuses the product with very high powered cheap Korean amplifiers? (Power is cheap these days..you have to account for the average kid can now EASILY afford a 2000 to 2500 watt amp, and they don't have a clue how to control the amount of power that they have with the volume knob, all they know is wide open...bass boost, subsonic filter, gain, volume 11 etc)

Answer that, and I might tell you.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

Dude, i've been messing with XBL^2 since i was 15...since it's very conception i've been toying with it. I held the first Brahma 12 ever made in my hands and I listened to it. I do not like it. It is a topology that I do not like.
I do not like how it sounds. I do not like how the Brahma sounds, I do not like how the XXX sounds. I know what it sounds like. I do not like it.

Give me a straight gap, decently strong motor with a copper coil and the middle of the road Q with some decent xmax and i'm happy.

I've messed with the LMS stuff, I do not like it either. It is personal preference. Ponte showed me the first graphs of this stuff back in 2002 or 2003 (cant remember) when he was working there with the 'ruler flat bl curve'. I was giddy as a 16 year old prom date when I got it thinking it was going to be the new revolution of what's going to be something amazing as ruler flat Bl...and i got my hands on one. I listened to it, I didn't like it. You might think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread..I however, don't. It sounds weird to me..

Come to find out it had a Q in the .7 range...a 10mm wide gap...and inductance that we won't even mention here..but by god it had ruler flat Bl...and I hated it.

So are you sure that you hated the linearity of the BL, or did you dislike the driver in that alignment? The LMS-Ultra, for example, was a low Q driver (~0.35 but I can't remember for sure) with low inductance as well. It was also very expensive, but as I acknowledged earlier, there is always a trade-off between price and performance. You are still suggesting that there is no use in any approach that focuses on linear BL, and that simply isn't true. There is no overhung driver that can do what the LMS-Ultra did in terms of performance; if there is, please point it out.

You should come over to my house and you can point out which drivers of mine are XBL^2 and which aren't, just by listening to them.

If you change the way or style that somebody is supposed to listen to something, then you have changed how they would have perceived things had they have just done a blind test with no explanation of what is going on. If you make them aware of the observation then they will start listening for things or noticing things that they otherwise would not have. In marketing and marketing research it is known as dealing a 'loaded question'. In reference that you are trying to sway the individual or the respondent of the survey to lean a certain way. You should know better then that when collecting scientific observational data //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

My point about listening was that in the circumstances, you (or the listener) have incorrectly blamed their displeasure in the sound on the fact that the axial response was flat. Where are the polar response plots? Can we have some THD, IMD, and CSD plots please?

You simply can argue until you are blue in the face about x, y and z technology. At the end of the day you can not tell me what I like, I know what I like, because it is my ears, and my perception. Not what your white paper says I 'should' be hearing. It just so happens that the vast majority of the population seems to think that it sounds pretty **** good as well...look at the top sq cars and see what kind of xbl^2 or LMS drivers they are running....

I'm willing to bet it's very few, and very very far between.

Well yes, it is very few and far between. For starters, drivers with XBL^2, LMS, Split Coil, etc. are all vastly outnumbered by overhung drivers. Most XBL^2 drivers are built for finished systems in pro or OEM applications; those available to consumers are largely budget-targeted DIY products. The number of LMS drivers out there are limited, for reasons we all know. Lastly, sq competitions do not judge how accurate to the source a vehicle is: they find the vehicle the judge likes most.

All of these are great reasons why the top SQ cars don't have drivers in them. That has nothing to do with whether the technologies are useful or not. The technologies are useful because they make designing accurate systems more plausible.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Tell me then grand master of the loudspeaker cookbook.
At what mH does inductance start to kick in at say a given 80Hz?

Answer that, and I might tell you.

I never said I knew everything, I am just commenting on the fact that you want to call out other companies and technologies when your companies drivers use inferior technology and you won't even give the full specs of your drivers, kind of ironic there.

I see you keep editing your post. Well, I will edit mine. How about you educate your audience and customers instead of playing ot the lowest common denominator. Just because you don't feel like educating your customers doesn't mean you shouldn't try and make a more advanced product.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

Tell me then grand master of the loudspeaker cookbook.
At what mH does inductance start to kick in at say a given 80Hz? And causes a roll off in response? There's a LOT more that goes into something than just shooting for low inductance. It's called DAF, if you shoot for really low inductance and rate something at a given 1000 watt power rating you end up with a very very short 4 layer coil that yes, has very low inductance. But what happens when the vast majority of your target market and your customers abuses the product with very high powered cheap Korean amplifiers? (Power is cheap these days..you have to account for the average kid can now EASILY afford a 2000 to 2500 watt amp, and they don't have a clue how to control the amount of power that they have with the volume knob, all they know is wide open...bass boost, subsonic filter, gain, volume 11 etc)

Answer that, and I might tell you.

This post just shows that you're in this to sell speakers first, and design transducers second. That's fine...you should just quit pretending otherwise.

"Low inductance is bad because it requires a short coil. The customers are too dumb too avoid blowing them, so make sure you've got the appropriate "DAF" with a nice big coil."

Like I said, we're on completely different pages here.

 

[Incriminator 10+ year member]

>

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

This post just shows that you're in this to sell speakers first, and design transducers second. That's fine...you should just quit pretending otherwise.
"Low inductance is bad because it requires a short coil. The customers are too dumb too avoid blowing them, so make sure you've got the appropriate "DAF" with a nice big coil."

Like I said, we're on completely different pages here.

I agree with you 100% here, sorry, but educate your customer and maybe they won't be too dumb.

Also, I have definitely noticed that Nick is a douche, I have recommended Fi drivers in the past, but never again, I will even tell people to steer clear of them as well and any driver that uses them as their buildhouse.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

So are you sure that you hated the linearity of the BL, or did you dislike the driver in that alignment? The LMS-Ultra, for example, was a low Q driver (~0.35 but I can't remember for sure) with low inductance as well. It was also very expensive, but as I acknowledged earlier, there is always a trade-off between price and performance. You are still suggesting that there is no use in any approach that focuses on linear BL, and that simply isn't true. There is no overhung driver that can do what the LMS-Ultra did in terms of performance; if there is, please point it out.

I've had more xbl^2 subs then I can even remember man. I bought, all of them figuring ok well maybe it was just the Brahma that I did not like. Got the XXX, didn't like that. Got one of the Blue Print 1203's, didn't like that either. There is something about the sound that it re produces that I do not like. The original LMS woofer that I had in my hands was a quad stack 3hp derivative. 10mm wide gap, 3" winding length on the coil, Inductance was in the 8-9 henry range and caused it to take a nose dive around the 55Hz range (here's a hint for you bose301s 8-9Henry's = 55Hz). Nope, there isn't an overhung driver that will do it. I will agree. I'm not saying that taking an approach to linear bl is pointless. It's a fantastic idea and some people will eat it up. The fact is that the technology is very young, until you change the curve and represent this technology as to how something 'should' sound...your fighting an uphill battle. You'll never win me over with respect to xbl/lms. Sorry...my brain is not programmed for them. I've gave them a shot, I personally, with my ears, do not like either one of them.

You should come over to my house and you can point out which drivers of mine are XBL^2 and which aren't, just by listening to them.

Sure! I'm not flying to Canada though //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif. You should be able to tell me the perceived difference and which one you like the best with respect to SGLC, Split Coil, LMS, and XBL^2 right? Hell, we'll even throw in a WGTi in the mix to make sure we're well rounded.

My point about listening was that in the circumstances, you (or the listener) have incorrectly blamed their displeasure in the sound on the fact that the axial response was flat. Where are the polar response plots? Can we have some THD, IMD, and CSD plots please?

If you want to do that your going to have to do some MAJOR code writing for a program to be observed in an anechoic chamber. Also will have to write a program to observe the linearity of the cone assembly with accelerometers, to determine when the speaker is un-linear, therefore distorted...and really see if the mic array around the human test subject will take note that the signal is distorted, and see if the human test subject even heard it...or found it displeasing.

At the end of the day..it isn't worth it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif.

Well yes, it is very few and far between. For starters, drivers with XBL^2, LMS, Split Coil, etc. are all vastly outnumbered by overhung drivers. Most XBL^2 drivers are built for finished systems in pro or OEM applications; those available to consumers are largely budget-targeted DIY products. The number of LMS drivers out there are limited, for reasons we all know. Lastly, sq competitions do not judge how accurate to the source a vehicle is: they find the vehicle the judge likes most.
All of these are great reasons why the top SQ cars don't have drivers in them. That has nothing to do with whether the technologies are useful or not. The technologies are useful because they make designing accurate systems more plausible.

If it is the vehicle and setup that the judge likes the most, and it has none of the technology listed above in it..and assuming that other vehicles had the technology in it..didn't you just prove my argument that perception, and how one hears the sound and defines whether they like what they are hearing or not? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Gratsi.

 

[NDMstang65 10+ year member]

This post just shows that you're in this to sell speakers first, and design transducers second. That's fine...you should just quit pretending otherwise.
"Low inductance is bad because it requires a short coil. The customers are too dumb too avoid blowing them, so make sure you've got the appropriate "DAF" with a nice big coil."

Like I said, we're on completely different pages here.

No...designing stuff is great...nothing wrong with coming out with something new.

The fact is you can't change the way that I hear what I hear. I like what I like.

If it comes a time where say a split coil is 'industry standard' or something of that nature then great!

Would you cater to the masses, or would you cater to the 2% //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif?