Loudest no-wall suv's?

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

There are a few 4in Z motors out there. So yes they have done it and they are loud

A few as in prototypes that fell short of the 3" version? If they were better/louder that's what DD would be manufacturing and selling I can assure you.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

Have you modeled those Z's? There's good odds that they'll keep gaining if you can make that box bigger assuming you're not hitting mechanical limits.
Not like 4" coil is "new". The TC 4hp has been around for 15 years now and while that platform is capable (TRF, T3 TSNS, etc) what's been setting world records in the SPL lanes is 3" coil woofers. Notice DD hasn't yet put a 4" coil into their Z? You don't think they've prototyped this?

Zv3 is a super platform for getting loud in a small box. You'll be hard pressed to find a better performer if that's all the space you have. If you have a meter, time, and wood/tools, I'd suggest that testing and tweaking boxes is the other next best thing you can do to gain. I still maintain that throwing 1000$+ subs at your current box and hoping you'll gain with be an expensive and disappointing venture.

There are a few 4in Z motors out there. So yes they have done it and they are loud

A few as in prototypes that fell short of the 3" version? If they were better/louder that's what DD would be manufacturing and selling I can assure you.

Yes, they have made a Z4.

Shorty shorts got his hands on one //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

More Z4 pics:

They must have been made recently because they all have the newest type of basket

 

[Doug118 10+ year member]

Have you modeled those Z's? There's good odds that they'll keep gaining if you can make that box bigger assuming you're not hitting mechanical limits.
Not like 4" coil is "new". The TC 4hp has been around for 15 years now and while that platform is capable (TRF, T3 TSNS, etc) what's been setting world records in the SPL lanes is 3" coil woofers. Notice DD hasn't yet put a 4" coil into their Z? You don't think they've prototyped this?

Zv3 is a super platform for getting loud in a small box. You'll be hard pressed to find a better performer if that's all the space you have. If you have a meter, time, and wood/tools, I'd suggest that testing and tweaking boxes is the other next best thing you can do to gain. I still maintain that throwing 1000$+ subs at your current box and hoping you'll gain with be an expensive and disappointing venture.

Oh I'm definitely not going to just drop other subs in my current box and hope for the best. The current subs will stay in that box until I've done testing and see a major gain with newer, more expensive subs. If they don't warrent the extra money spent, I will sell them and keep the Zv3's. I'm extremely impressed with how loud the Zv3's get and so is everyone when I tell them which subs I'm running.

I should try building another box. Do you think it'll gain that much by going .5-1 cube larger per sub?

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Oh I'm definitely not going to just drop other subs in my current box and hope for the best. The current subs will stay in that box until I've done testing and see a major gain with newer, more expensive subs. If they don't warrent the extra money spent, I will sell them and keep the Zv3's. I'm extremely impressed with how loud the Zv3's get and so is everyone when I tell them which subs I'm running.
I should try building another box. Do you think it'll gain that much by going .5-1 cube larger per sub?

Everything else being equal they will definitely get louder probably up to about 8 cube each where you start hitting a plateau where you gain little for more volume.

That said, how many variables could make you LOSE?

Port is no longer the optimum distance from whatever wall it fires into

impedance rises slightly at your peak and you lose 25% of your amp output.

the larger box otherwise interferes with the standing wave you're building up.

One local guy gained over a full dB by merely inverting some 18's that were in too-small box up my way, though you might just lose because of other variables. Inverting the pair should add close to a cube to your overall box volume

Do you own an SPL meter? Have you tried the "free" and otherwise cheap methods to gain? There's likely a full dB that you can find for free if you have enough time and a few bucks for some odds and ends.

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/98191-spl-gains-updates-page-30-routing-the-port/

^^^ this thread is the only reason I signed up for SMD board. It is very good.

Take lots of notes, measure everything and test everything.

 

[Doug118 10+ year member]

Well Aldulbrich and myself have come to an agreement on his N3's so that's my new upgrade. Lucky for me, there are soo many people with these trucks that all the free gains are pretty much listed everywhere out there. I own a SPL Labs meter and have access to a TL Magnum whenever I want. This is going to sound crazy but I have done ZERO testing to try to gain anything. I didn't even try moving the box closer to the hatch, which I know is guaranteed to gain a good bit

My subs only have .5 cubes displacement for the pair. I will worry about gaining tenths if/when I get close to the New England no-wall record, which is my real goal. I have no desire to compete and only plan on going to 1 show once I know I have that record beat

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

A few as in prototypes that fell short of the 3" version? If they were better/louder that's what DD would be manufacturing and selling I can assure you.

They didn't fall short of anything. They are expensive as ****. Pretty sure they will still build them if you pay.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

They didn't fall short of anything. They are expensive as ****. Pretty sure they will still build them if you pay.

I doubt it, but I could ask when I call them tomorrow. Don't think they'll make any more.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

They didn't fall short of anything. They are expensive as ****. Pretty sure they will still build them if you pay.

As opposed to the regular ones that are 2600$? LOL. What do you think it costs DD to make it in 4" coil over 3" coil? 15$ for the coil? 5$ for a little more steel in the top and bottom plate?

Trust me, if the 4" was better/louder Dante and Butler would be switching to them and gaining and DD would be touting them as "new and improved" or "even better".

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

As opposed to the regular ones that are 2600$? LOL. What do you think it costs DD to make it in 4" coil over 3" coil? 15$ for the coil? 5$ for a little more steel in the top and bottom plate?
Trust me, if the 4" was better/louder Dante and Butler would be switching to them and gaining and DD would be touting them as "new and improved" or "even better".

The motors are actually quite a bit bigger. Also, you're paying for the R&D work of testing what ratio is close to perfect.

If I could get my hands on some 4" coil Z motors later in life, that would be awesome! Waiting on them to make a 5" coil motor like B2 has except column-neo style //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

Called DD this morning.

They no longer make the Z with a 4" coil. They don't even stock parts for it anymore. It was a limited production run, and only 20 were made.

The reason they do not make them anymore is cost. He said a Standard Z was $2,800 and a Z4 cost $4,500.

The main cost was in the motor. It is much larger than the Z3.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

Called DD this morning.
They no longer make the Z with a 4" coil. They don't even stock parts for it anymore. It was a limited production run, and only 20 were made.

The reason they do not make them anymore is cost. He said a Standard Z was $2,800 and a Z4 cost $4,500.

The main cost was in the motor. It is much larger than the Z3.

Because that extra 2 grand per sub is a deal-breaker in 170+dB builds? Doubtful. And if the 170+ guys were using the 4" coil version you can bet your arse they would be selling a LOT Of parts for them.

I highly doubt there's 2 grand worth of difference in the cost of materials either. That seems very far fetched at 87$ per KG for neodymium. For reference that would be about a 3" round 1" thick.

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

Because that extra 2 grand per sub is a deal-breaker in 170+dB builds? Doubtful. And if the 170+ guys were using the 4" coil version you can bet your arse they would be selling a LOT Of parts for them.
I highly doubt there's 2 grand worth of difference in the cost of materials either. That seems very far fetched at 87$ per KG for neodymium. For reference that would be about a 3" round 1" thick.

The few people doing 170+ would be their only customers. I understand why that would not warrant the product. After those people got their subs, there would be no more business. How many people are going to pay $4,500 per sub for their walled build with sixteen 15's???

A lot of the price difference may be due to not getting the motor pieces in as large of an order. Plus, rise is ridiculous with neo motors this big. There's a reason people can put such big amps on the 3" Z's and wire low. Rise is astronomical. A 4" coil is simply not needed for thermal reasons. It would just add weight in this case. It's not like weaker ferrite motors that get maxed out thermally, so people started using 4" coils.

Have you seen EMF's testing they did on the YOLO? They haven't fried one yet on clean power because rise is so high.

Tons of rise and power compression with column-style neo motors.

/rant

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

The few people doing 170+ would be their only customers. I understand why that would not warrant the product. After those people got their subs, there would be no more business. How many people are going to pay $4,500 per sub for their walled build with sixteen 15's???

There's plenty of people who will buy the "best" just for the sake of having "the best" and pricetag is not an issue or the higher the better to make them feel elite. When your build is hitting 170's most of those are 4 or fewer drivers and the subs are a small portion of the cost even if they were 4500$ a whack. Look at the price of Critical Mass equipment... there's also a company that sells 1000$ RCA cables and 100$ a foot speaker wire. There's a company that sells 8$ ice cubes.

A lot of the price difference may be due to not getting the motor pieces in as large of an order. Plus, rise is ridiculous with neo motors this big. There's a reason people can put such big amps on the 3" Z's and wire low. Rise is astronomical. A 4" coil is simply not needed for thermal reasons. It would just add weight in this case. It's not like weaker ferrite motors that get maxed out thermally, so people started using 4" coils.

4" coil is not needed for thermal reasons for 3 second burps period. There's guys running 40KW worth of amps to the '05 Shocker Sig and the failures were only outgassing in the coils (which was fixed by a thicker former). Even in those applications 3" coil (and a thin one at that) is adequate for holding a 3 second tone.

As far as "gaining" from larger ceramic motors it is very marginal going larger than what has already been out there. The only purpose of 4" coils IMO is to stroke the ego of the people using them so that they can run more power for the sake of running more power. All things being equal you lose efficiency making the coil larger and the gap wider to accommodate coils that'll hold 3KW continuous power and you wind up in a scenario where it just takes you twice as much power to get to the same output... but you can brag about how much power you run.

Any big-boy subwoofer should have a big impedance spike. This is not dependent on magnet materials.

Have you seen EMF's testing they did on the YOLO? They haven't fried one yet on clean power because rise is so high.
Tons of rise and power compression with column-style neo motors.

/rant

How many subs have you run impedance sweep graphs on? Your use of the term "power compression" makes no sense here either, care to elaborate?

 

[adulbrich 5,000+ posts]

How many subs have you run impedance sweep graphs on? Your use of the term "power compression" makes no sense here either, care to elaborate?

I have not, but I've seen impedance graphs for both neo and conventional subs.

Power compression as in you don't get much more output as you add more and more power.

From your other posts, you seem to be agreeing that DD should not make 4" coil neos, since 3" coils are better overall