Kicker rms rating

[DBfan187 5,000+ posts]

heat = power dude, power is measured in watts

clipping causes extra power //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[putergod 10+ year member]

clipping doubles the power there bub, you overpowered them
that 240watts was actually 480watts, pretty darn near the 500watts you posted. Play that through your speaker for an extended time and it will for sure die.

User error on your part.

it wasnt the clipping, it was the lack of heat dissapation that the clipping created that blew it

that is usually how i have blown subs

So it's not the insanely erratic driving on the ice covered road that killed the guy, it was that sudden stop at the telephone pole. Putting that 45 up to someones head didn't kill them either... it was the brain exploding that killed them.

See my point?

And I already confessed to the user error in my post.

Clipping is the "cause". To repeatedly tell people that "clipping doesn't hurt speakers" is very unwise. Mr. Average Joe that has no background in electronics, at all, who just wants loud music, will buy speakers, and amplifiers, with similar ratings. This average joe is very likely to repeatedly drive his amps into clipping because "it sounds louder" and "experts" have told him "clipping doesn't hurt speakers, only too much power will". He looks at his 500w subs, and 500w amps and think "these subs can handle these amps, so I'm good to go". And in short order, those subs will be blown.

The only way one will ever drive an amp to rated, continuous, power, without clipping, is by playing straight tones at maximum unclipped power. On music (note I said music, as bass tracks are just a collection of tones with, possibly, some background music) you will never drive an amp to it's continuous rated power, without clipping.

Any good quality speaker will be able to survive much higher power than they are rated, provided there is no clipping in the signal path going to them. I'm not saying that they can handle an unlimited amount of power, that's just retarded and only a fool would say that. However, speaker manufactures (just like all other manufacturers) will, typically, err on the conservative side, knowing that Mr. Average Joe above will be buying their speakers.

Simply put, the "act of a clipped signal" may not be what ultimately kills a speaker, but clipping amps on speaker DOES kill speakers. Just as driving like a fool on an ice covered road DOES kill people or shooting someone in the head DOES kill them.

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

heat = power dude, power is measured in watts
clipping causes extra power

this is what I meant, "clipping" doesnt kill speakers, the added heat and lack of dissapation does.
And I understand what Putergod is saying, but technically, if the speaker could dissapate the heat, you could clipp it and it wouldnt blow. Now, whether or not the driver is capable of dissapating the added heat is a totally different story. And yes, I see your point that to laymen, clipping is bad.

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

shooting someone in the head DOES kill them

that reminds me of that old saying, guns dont kill people, people kill people. Its a joke and all, but it can be applied here as well. Clipping doesnt kill speakers, people kill speakers (user error)

 

[putergod 10+ year member]

clipping doubles the power there bub, you overpowered them
that 240watts was actually 480watts, pretty darn near the 500watts you posted. Play that through your speaker for an extended time and it will for sure die.

I want to point something else out here...

An amp can only, ever, put out the amount of power that it is capable of. When a amp signal is clipped, the wave gets no bigger, it clips off, because the 240w amp can only put out 240w, period. Heat is not power, heat is energy, power is a measurement of energy. Energy cannot be created, nor destroyed, it can only be changed from one type to the other. The difference that happened, when clipping that amp, was that the electrical energy, that was normally turned into acoustical energy with the smooth rise and fall of the ac signal, was turned into heat energy as the signal no long had a smooth rise and fall. The speaker will maintian a signle motoin longer which causes it to not be transferring the energy into sound, and instead, that energy turns into pure heat in the voice coil. It's still the same amount of energy, it's just a difference on how that energy is being transferred.

The RMS power will measure higher, but only due to the signal staying at the peaks longer, which shifts the "average".

 

[bubbagumper6 5,000+ posts]

that reminds me of that old saying, guns dont kill people, people kill people. Its a joke and all, but it can be applied here as well. Clipping doesnt kill speakers, people kill speakers (user error)

In this case, it's more like, guns don't kill people, shooting people kills people. Clipping does not kill speakers, that's a fact. Just because your feeding a clipped signal doesn't mean the speaker will fail. What people don't understand is that if you say a 500w amp, and you crank the gain, you think your feeding your woofer a 500w clipped signal right? WRONG. If you set your gains correctly you would be outputting 500w (on a sine wave), but when you crank it, and you start clipping the signal, the power output continues to go up. So like DB said, you may be outputting 900w (obviously not clean power). But this alone will not kill a woofer. If I had a sub that can handle 2kw rms, then I could feed it a 900w clipped signal all day. But it's when noobs get a 500w amp and a 500w sub, then crank the gains and feed that sub the 900w clipped signal...then shit goes poof and the magic smoke comes out

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

But it's when noobs get a 500w amp and a 500w sub, then crank the gains and feed that sub the 900w clipped signal...then shit goes poof and the magic smoke comes out

this sounds right. As long as the driver can dissapate the heat, you can send it whatever you want. Its just that at some point, the driver is no longer capable, and as you say "poof"..(that looks so funny when it happens).

Another thing also, and I dont know if this is related at all. But amps typically are stated as having twice the max power as RMS power. Have you ever noticed a Fosgate birthsheet? The amps always (well, on the 10 or so birthsheets I have seen) have 3x the max power as Rms power.(Roughly)

So I guess amps are capable of quite a bit more than double the RMS power.

 

[bubbagumper6 5,000+ posts]

this sounds right. As long as the driver can dissapate the heat, you can send it whatever you want. Its just that at some point, the driver is no longer capable, and as you say "poof"..(that looks so funny when it happens). Another thing also, and I dont know if this is related at all. But amps typically are stated as having twice the max power as RMS power. Have you ever noticed a Fosgate birthsheet? The amps always (well, on the 10 or so birthsheets I have seen) have 3x the max power as Rms power.(Roughly)

So I guess amps are capable of quite a bit more than double the RMS power.

Your confusing being able to output power, and being able to output clean power. An amp can produce a lot more than what it's rated for simply by clipping the living hell out of it and basically applying rail voltages to the sub, but this is going to sound like shit and probably destroy your sub. Not to mention it's hard on the amp and could easily damage it.

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

well for instance i had a punch250.2 rated at 316rms and 947max. You think that 947 was a maxed out clipped signal?

 

[bubbagumper6 5,000+ posts]

well for instance i had a punch250.2 rated at 316rms and 947max. You think that 947 was a maxed out clipped signal?

I don't know how companies get their "max" ratings, but they don't mean shit.

 

[Haunz 10+ year member]

He looks at his 500w subs, and 500w amps and think "these subs can handle these amps, so I'm good to go". And in short order, those subs will be blown.
Simply put, the "act of a clipped signal" may not be what ultimately kills a speaker, but clipping amps on speaker DOES kill speakers.

You would be hard pressed to kill a real 500 watt driver with 500 watts of power, unless there is a severe amount of distortion over a prolonged period of time... keep in mind an amp can generally not provide much more power then it's rated for at nominal load... and as you increase duty cycle through compression THD skyrockets...

The difference that happened, when clipping that amp, was that the electrical energy, that was normally turned into acoustical energy with the smooth rise and fall of the ac signal, was turned into heat energy as the signal no long had a smooth rise and fall. The speaker will maintian a signle motoin longer which causes it to not be transferring the energy into sound, and instead, that energy turns into pure heat in the voice coil.

This is completely false.. first of all 99% of the power in a coil turns into heat anyway.. secondly any extra power due to clipping goes into harmonics, which are also sine waves.. you can feed a sub for example pure square wave, and it will still move sinusoidally with a base + harmonics...

 

[putergod 10+ year member]

You would be hard pressed to kill a real 500 watt driver with 500 watts of power, unless there is a severe amount of distortion over a prolonged period of time... keep in mind an amp can generally not provide much more power then it's rated for at nominal load... and as you increase duty cycle through compression THD skyrockets...

Really? Wrong... I've done it. Several times. Maybe you should read my earlier post so I dont have to repeat myself.

This is completely false.. first of all 99% of the power in a coil turns into heat anyway.. secondly any extra power due to clipping goes into harmonics, which are also sine waves.. you can feed a sub for example pure square wave, and it will still move sinusoidally with a base + harmonics...

You must not understand physics if you feel this is "wrong". I worked for many years at Peavy Electronics as an amplifier inspector. I have seen many clipped signals on many O-scopes. If you were, in fact, correct, an O-Scope would show it. But alas, it does not.

 

[Haunz 10+ year member]

^ you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and I'm sure what you just posted may be part of the reason you are so ignorent.. (looks like someone's windows paint project)

Forget everything else.. A clipped signal has no DC component in any conventional sense..

Of course you claim to have worked for someone or another as an 'amp inspector' so you must be right.. lol..

 

[kr15 5,000+ posts]

to add another aspect to this...today I noticed my dustcap was extremely hot. so, im thinking that under it and within the coil is extremely hot. well, the thing is, my amp is below the optimal gain setting for my preouts. I only have 2volt preouts, and my gain is only half. also the bass boost is low. This is a bxi1508d at 1ohm on a Treo 750rms sub. The amp is rated at 1500rms, but with box rise, voltage drops, the fact that its overrated anyway, im probably only pushing about a 1000rms....so what gives? Is 1000 rms just too much?

 

[bubbagumper6 5,000+ posts]

^ you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and I'm sure what you just posted may be part of the reason you are so ignorent.. (looks like someone's windows paint project)
Forget everything else.. A clipped signal has no DC component in any conventional sense..

Of course you claim to have worked for someone or another as an 'amp inspector' so you must be right.. lol..

How is the clipped portion of the wave not dc? Isn't it caused by the fets being fully opened and thus outputting the rail voltage to the speaker?