Imagration Reform

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

You've lost scope of the discussion. If you want to talk about the melting pot, this country has accepted immigrants for 200 years and always remained a single-language country. But now a bunch of illegal immigrants floods across the border and we're suppose to accept a dual-language country?
How about walk into a fast food restaurant in California and have to ask for an English speaking employee to take your order. Yes, its happened to me. Was it this huge inconvenience? No, that's not the point. I wouldn't even have a problem with our shifting social structures if it wasn't brought about by an illegal flood of immigrants coming here with so little concern for adjusting to our culture. This is an English speaking country, and it is not too much to ask that immigrants learn it when they come here. Even President Obama has said the same thing.

You're talking about all hispanics now not just illegals. A lot of hispanics come here legally. Like I said before how long do you think it takes people to learn English when they grew up speaking a completely different language? You act as if a majority of people here speak spanish or something. Other countries learn English so they can communicate with Americans when they come to the country. It takes time to learn a language. They're not going to come here and automatically know how to speak english. At first you argue that you don't want illegals coming here, now you're seeming to not want any hispanics coming here at all because they don't come here and know English right away. So people have to know how to speak the language of the country their going to fluently before they can go there? If that was the case people would rarely ever travel to other countries.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

You're talking about all hispanics now not just illegals. A lot of hispanics come here legally. Like I said before how long do you think it takes people to learn English when they grew up speaking a completely different language? You act as if a majority of people here speak spanish or something. Other countries learn English so they can communicate with Americans when they come to the country. It takes time to learn a language. They're not going to come here and automatically know how to speak english. At first you argue that you don't want illegals coming here, now you're seeming to not want any hispanics coming here at all because they don't come here and know English right away. So people have to know how to speak the language of the country their going to fluently before they can go there? If that was the case people would rarely ever travel to other countries.

Its hard to hold a serious conversion with you when you constantly misinterpret or exaggerate everything I say. When did I even imply people needed to know English before they came here? Ive quite clearly been talking about people who refuse to learn it. In your rose colored world those people dont exist, in reality they do.
Again if you must manipulate my points to counter them, that should indicate to you that your stance is weak.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

To put your comment in perspective, we are talking about controlling the flow of illegal aliens into our job market. You make it sound like socialism, when in fact its simply controlling our border. Your country controls its border, I guess we should consider your govt a socialist one who 'controls who can compete' within its economy too?

We're not just talking about the flow of illegal aliens; we're talking about control over the flow of legal immigrants, too. You put scare quotes around "controls who can compete" as if that's not exactly what the government is doing when they choose who is allowed into the country to work and who is not (and they also control under what conditions an American citizen or business can exchange with international parties).

To an extent, I've already addressed your criticism in the previous thread, where I agreed that Canada needs to do a better job relaxing its border. I wouldn't consider Canada to be a socialist country; like the US, it is a mixed economy.

Its ironic you are 9 times out of 10 liberal in your view, but the 1 time out of 10 you still want to use the 'smaller govt' argument.
Im traditionally for smaller govt. Border control however is one very important responsibility our govt has, large or small. You want to worry about big govt, lets start trimming the fat in our huge beaurocracy. I find it ironic how liberals want to add to the size of the govt with huge social programs like socialized medicine, but when we start talking about putting people on our border to secure it, the cries for smaller govt then start flying.

Well, Chris, I can only assume you've misunderstood my posts or are simply not current on what I have said. For several years now, I have been a classical liberal in the mold of Milton Friedman. People should be free to make their own social and economic decisions, which means a small government. Now I agree with you that one of the primary roles of government is to protect people from physical harm, but I don't think it's role is to protect people from having to compete on the job market. If you were talking only about boosting security on this side of the border, we would be having a very different conversation.

If you can find me a post where I've encouraged bigger government and more taxes, I'll be surprised. In past threads, I have come down in support of a welfare system, universal health care, and action on climate change, in each instance because I felt it was a moral imperative or the scientifically reasonable response to take. Never, however, have I felt that these problems are best solved by government. Those who disagree with these goals should not be compelled by force to pay for them.

Since you want to try and use the conservative idea of smaller govt against them, its only fair I use the traditional liberal counter-argument against you. Firing all the cops and firemen would result in smaller govt too, why not do that as well? Again, controlling the border is a function much like the police force, it only makes sense the federal govt handles it (and actually does it). We can afford to spend trillions on bailing out wall street and detroit, even Greece, but when it comes time to guard our borders that's when we need to halt our spending?

You're not using those arguments against me; I don't agree with any of them.

Exactly, all the legal residents who speak the country's national language are suppose to make all the concessions. We should have to request an english speaking mcdonalds employee, we should have to accept certain job fields are no longer realistically available, and we should pay more taxes to cover all the illegals who aren't paying taxes. But if we pass a law that means legal immigrants have to carry around a green card or other proof of residency, people scream racism and damaged daily freedoms.
Us having to press 1 for english is a sign of how wrong this whole thing is. Mexicans are immigrating here illegally in such huge numbers that they are able to create their own society complete with its own language. These people are not people wishing to merge into our society, they are wanting to change ours, or replace it with their own. They come here without our permission, and offer only to adapt to our society so far as it benefits them. The do-gooders then say its society's responsibility to adapt to what the Mexican's chose not to (such as using our language). You aren't going to convince me that's right morally, ethically, financially or socially.

You want the government to mandate language. That is a most basic liberty you want to take away from the businesses and the people. If a business wants to serve Spanish clients, and thus offers an English and Spanish language option over the phone, that should be their prerogative. If you, as a consumer, don't like that they've done so, stop supporting them and write them a letter telling them why you've done so. You don't need a nanny state to tell you what languages are allowed and which aren't.

 

[phantom240 5,000+ posts]

I'm not reading through this shitstorm... but I want to say that I hate illegal immigrants (no matter what nationality). I don't give a crap who is what, as long as they are legal, english speaking (or learning english), and tax paying members of our society.

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

I'm not reading through this shitstorm... but I want to say that I hate illegal immigrants (no matter what nationality). I don't give a crap who is what, as long as they are legal, english speaking (or learning english), and tax paying members of our society.

Why do you care if they speak English or not?

Would you like to deport all the naturalized citizens that don't pay tax?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

We're not just talking about the flow of illegal aliens; we're talking about control over the flow of legal immigrants, too. You put scare quotes around "controls who can compete" as if that's not exactly what the government is doing when they choose who is allowed into the country to work and who is not (and they also control under what conditions an American citizen or business can exchange with international parties).

And again, we aren't discussing anything every other country in the world doesn't do too. Sure, we could break this down to ultimately this is a govt plan to control the economy, just like we could say the police force is to keep criminals out of the work force, roads are built to control where businesses can locate, and the national education system is designed to control what work fields receive the best public training. This is a discussion on illegal immigration and you are turning it into a discussion on U.S. tariff policies.

To an extent, I've already addressed your criticism in the previous thread, where I agreed that Canada needs to do a better job relaxing its border. I wouldn't consider Canada to be a socialist country; like the US, it is a mixed economy.

Canada can afford to relax its borders, it does not border a near-3rd-world country which openly encourages illegal immigration. Like I said in the previous thread, dig a tunnel from Mexico City to Canada, open it up to public access with no restrictions, then come tell the US how we should handle the situation. Until then, its easy to sit thousands of miles away from the issue and claim you'd open your borders too if you could. No offense Neil, like I said before and I think you already know, I generally hold your opinion in high respect, but you simply dont have a dog in this hunt.

Well, Chris, I can only assume you've misunderstood my posts or are simply not current on what I have said. For several years now, I have been a classical liberal in the mold of Milton Friedman. People should be free to make their own social and economic decisions, which means a small government. Now I agree with you that one of the primary roles of government is to protect people from physical harm, but I don't think it's role is to protect people from having to compete on the job market. If you were talking only about boosting security on this side of the border, we would be having a very different conversation.
If you can find me a post where I've encouraged bigger government and more taxes, I'll be surprised. In past threads, I have come down in support of a welfare system, universal health care, and action on climate change, in each instance because I felt it was a moral imperative or the scientifically reasonable response to take. Never, however, have I felt that these problems are best solved by government. Those who disagree with these goals should not be compelled by force to pay for them.

If Ive misunderstood your political history, I apologize. but I must admit Im confused how you can claim to be a traditional liberal, one who believes in a welfare system, universal (socialized) health care, and 'action' on climate change, and still throw in the middle of that that you are also for less taxes and smaller govt. Id say Im for less taxes and smaller govt, and also in favor of everyone getting a job and new house from the fed, if I thought I could have it both ways.

If you were in favor of socialized medicine, how can you also be in favor of not forcing everyone to pay for it?

You keep trying to make this sound like the U.S. govt is trying to control the labor markets in this country by simply securing its border. Name one other country in the entire world that has an open border and anonymous residency. Name one country that even has one of those two things. None of them. So I dont really even have to argue against your point beyond saying if controlling your border and immigration is a form of socialized control of the job market, its no more so than every other place in the world.

And as Ive said previously, this country is already famous for being hospitable to immigrants, so a guilt trip over wanting to follow our laws is not going to work on me.

You want the government to mandate language. That is a most basic liberty you want to take away from the businesses and the people. If a business wants to serve Spanish clients, and thus offers an English and Spanish language option over the phone, that should be their prerogative. If you, as a consumer, don't like that they've done so, stop supporting them and write them a letter telling them why you've done so. You don't need a nanny state to tell you what languages are allowed and which aren't.

No, again I want it to secure the border and yes control immigration (albeit with a reformed system). Has our govt mandated a language for the past 200 years? Yet it has allowed an enormous flow of immigrants into this country in those 200 years. Why is this different? The location. Its easier for a Mexican to get to the US than it is for a german (for example) so its less likely they are here temporarily. IOW, other immigrants are more likely coming here with every intention of staying the rest of their lives, automatic reason to work towards assimilating into our society. Second reason, attitude. Its not uncommon for a Mexican to feel the US stole the southern states from Mexico, and they have a right to 'come back' and reap whatever benefits they can. No other group of immigrants historically has felt this way.

Im not arguing for the govt to take away a businesses right to offer a menu in spanish, Im arguing that our govt has let a wide open border and their propensity to ignore their own laws create a situation in which it makes financial sense for a business to offer spanish menus because we are letting our country be over run by illegal squatters who have very little desire to conform to our society.

As for the nanny state comment, again Im confused why you call it a nanny state when I want our borders secured and our laws followed, but its not a nanny state when we discussed the topic of if the govt should force us to own health insurance.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Would you like to deport all the naturalized citizens that don't pay tax?

Nice try, but I know you are smart enough to discern between a lawfully tax exempt person, and an unlawful one. And its obvious which one he was talking about.

 

[phantom240 5,000+ posts]

Nice try, but I know you are smart enough to discern between a lawfully tax exempt person, and an unlawful one. And its obvious which one he was talking about.

Ding ding!

We have a winrar!

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

Its hard to hold a serious conversion with you when you constantly misinterpret or exaggerate everything I say. When did I even imply people needed to know English before they came here? Ive quite clearly been talking about people who refuse to learn it. In your rose colored world those people dont exist, in reality they do.
Again if you must manipulate my points to counter them, that should indicate to you that your stance is weak.

How do you know who refuses to learn english? You have no idea how long a person has been in this country. They could have only been here a month or even less and not know english. I'm telling you that the reason that some of them don't speak it fluently is because they're learning the language. You clearly assumed that just because someone can't speak english fluently it's because they don't want to. I'm not manipulating anything you're saying.

Do you want immigrants to not be able to have a job until they can speak english fluently enough for your liking? You want them to move here and completely forget about their culture and where they came from? Nobody's forcing you to speak spanish. If they want to speak their own language that's their option. You've gone from talking about illegals to just all immigrants now. I like the idea of a country where people from different cultures and other countries can co-exist. Clearly you have a problem with that for some reason and want everybody to be the same. The different cultures and acceptance of all nationalities are what make this country so great.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

Im not arguing for the govt to take away a businesses right to offer a menu in spanish, Im arguing that our govt has let a wide open border and their propensity to ignore their own laws create a situation in which it makes financial sense for a business to offer spanish menus because we are letting our country be over run by illegal squatters who have very little desire to conform to our society.
As for the nanny state comment, again Im confused why you call it a nanny state when I want our borders secured and our laws followed, but its not a nanny state when we discussed the topic of if the govt should force us to own health insurance.

Here you are again just assuming things. You have no idea what a persons desires are. What exactly do you think American culture consists of? It's a country of people from all over the world. When you say you want them to conform to our society what exactly do you mean?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

How do you know who refuses to learn english? You have no idea how long a person has been in this country. They could have only been here a month or even less and not know english. I'm telling you that the reason that some of them don't speak it fluently is because they're learning the language. You clearly assumed that just because someone can't speak english fluently it's because they don't want to. I'm not manipulating anything you're saying.
Do you want immigrants to not be able to have a job until they can speak english fluently enough for your liking? You want them to move here and completely forget about their culture and where they came from? Nobody's forcing you to speak spanish. If they want to speak their own language that's their option. You've gone from talking about illegals to just all immigrants now. I like the idea of a country where people from different cultures and other countries can co-exist. Clearly you have a problem with that for some reason and want everybody to be the same. The different cultures and acceptance of all nationalities are what make this country so great.

How do YOU know why people refuse to learn English. Yet again you come back with 'well some of them do' and again I have to remind you we are talking about those who dont. You dont even want to discuss those people, when mentioned, you want to divert to talking about the people who do learn it, or those who are currently trying to learn it. Ive made it clear enough, enough times now, that Im referring to those who dont learn it (and there are plenty, Ive met a lot living in Cali) that you continuing to try and divert to a different group of people tells me you get it, but are afraid to address my points directly.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Here you are again just assuming things. You have no idea what a persons desires are. What exactly do you think American culture consists of? It's a country of people from all over the world. When you say you want them to conform to our society what exactly do you mean?

Im not assuming anything, there is no denying their culture is trying to impose their language on ours. Before you say it, no, not ALL of them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif but enough to create a situation in which English speaking people deal with it on a daily basis.

What do I mean when I say conform to our society. In this context, Im referring to our language. Hasn't that been obvious?

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

How do YOU know why people refuse to learn English. Yet again you come back with 'well some of them do' and again I have to remind you we are talking about those who dont. You dont even want to discuss those people, when mentioned, you want to divert to talking about the people who do learn it, or those who are currently trying to learn it. Ive made it clear enough, enough times now, that Im referring to those who dont learn it (and there are plenty, Ive met a lot living in Cali) that you continuing to try and divert to a different group of people tells me you get it, but are afraid to address my points directly.

I've never met anyone who lives here that doesn't want to learn english. If someone wants to live here and not learn english it puts them at a disadvantage to succeed not you. There is absolutely no advantage to not learning english if you live in America. All the people I've worked with and met that don't speak english well were trying to learn so their english was sub-par. My question to you is how do you know someone refuses to learn english unless you ask them? The fact that they speak even a little bit proves that they at least try so that's how I know that they are trying to learn. I've never met anyone who works in America in a position that requires them to communicate to others that speaks absolutely no english at all. They at least know the very basics or enough to perform their job somewhat.

 

[LazyRider 10+ year member]

Im not assuming anything, there is no denying their culture is trying to impose their language on ours. Before you say it, no, not ALL of them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif but enough to create a situation in which English speaking people deal with it on a daily basis.
What do I mean when I say conform to our society. In this context, Im referring to our language. Hasn't that been obvious?

A large portion of the country speaks both english and spanish, and not even just the hispanics. It's because Spanish is a very popular language. You keep forgetting to address the point that other countries offer options for Americans who speak English. Because English is also a popular language. Should they stop letting Americans go to other countries now? Are Americans refusing to conform to other countries societies now?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I've never met anyone who lives here that doesn't want to learn english. If someone wants to live here and not learn english it puts them at a disadvantage to succeed not you. There is absolutely no advantage to not learning english if you live in America. All the people I've worked with and met that don't speak english well were trying to learn so their english was sub-par. My question to you is how do you know someone refuses to learn english unless you ask them? The fact that they speak even a little bit proves that they at least try so that's how I know that they are trying to learn. I've never met anyone who works in America in a position that requires them to communicate to others that speaks absolutely no english at all. They at least know the very basics or enough to perform their job somewhat.

The fact you've never met someone who doesn't want to learn English only tells me how limited your first hand experience with illegals is. Most of the illegals I knew in Cali who didnt speak english (well) were planning on returning to Mexico once they had saved enough money. One old man I met (friend's grandfather) decided he was too old to learn. Several others in the fringe of the people I knew seemed to simply despise most everything 'gringo'.
You've obviously never been to a barrio/neighborhood where its quite easy to get along every day without knowing one word of English. Ive been to some of those places. Again, your opinion exceeds your experience.

Your attempt to boil this down to I cant prove every spanish speaking illegal doesnt want to learn english is silly. Only in your fantasy world do those people not exist unless I post pics, names, addresses and phone numbers. Your reality is what you want to believe it is, not what's really out there.

If this whole 'dial 1 for english' thing is just for people who immigrated here recently and havent had time to learn english, our immigration problem must be even larger than I feared. I mean, if the number of very recent illegal immigrants is enough to alter our society/language in a way no other immigration has done in the past 200 years, the number of over all illegals must be in the 10's of millions. Or.... maybe you are just grasping at straws like usual, because you just cant bring yourself to believe the attitude I discuss here in illegal Mexican immigrants really exists.

Your theory that we are finding Spanish thrust into our daily lives more and more every day is simply because so many Illegals Mexicans want to learn English, but just haven't yet... is laughably naive. The reality is its a sign of just how secure these illegals feel with breaking our laws. If you were going to sneak into Germany and attempt to live there secretly, would you continue speaking English? No, you'd learn German if for no other reason than to not get caught. But Mexicans know we will let them walk all over us without us raising an eyebrow.