Help: Replacing a 4 Channel with a 2 channel, and Misc

[Immortal 10+ year member]

EDIT: Please see my last post as I tend to ask more questions as I go along

Quick questions guys, I had circuit city set up my system a few months ago and now I want to replace the amp with a bigger/better one since I have more money.

I have two amps, a 1000 mono for the subs, and a 100 x4 Channel for the speakers. The thing is that the guy set up the 4 channel amp to only use 2 channels bridged.

My immediate goals are to upgrade the 4 channel, then the speakers, then the mono bloc, in that order, to increase the volume that I am pushing.

My first question is, do I need to buy another 4 channel or can I buy a 2 channel instead? Would I want to do this? I'm just thinking that I might be able to get a more powerful 2 channel for the same/cheaper price, and if its just a matter of switiching out the amps....

Second question. I want to get a significantly more powerful amp to replace the 4 channel and possibly another for the mono. I'm thinking Fosgate Power series in the 400-600 watt range for the 4/2channel and maybe something in the 1000-1500 range for the mono, perhaps replacing the cheap mono amp with a Fosgate 1000, which is already underrated in RMS to begin with. The bass is fine so the mono is a lower priority because my goal in upgrading the amps and speakers (read down) is to get louder volume from the music to compete with the bass.

Third question. What kind of wiring gauges and quantities am I looking at here? I have a 2004 Ford Escape. I imagine ill need to upgrade the primary power wires running to the engine and possibly the speaker wires. Thoughts?

Fourth question. If I do upgrade one or both amps, am I going to need anything else like another battery, capacitor, etc? Any detailed information on this would be appreciated.

Finally with the more powerful amps I am going to go ahead and buy new speakers too, 110 RMS each (I have 50 RMS each right now). Will the new amps support them? The Fosgate P400's push 200 RMS x 2channel at 4 ohms bridge so I suppose they will. Do you think ill see as huge of a gain in loudness as I am hoping for by upgrading so significantly?

Thanks in advance for all the help.

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[ronjon228 10+ year member]

Second question. I want to get a significantly more powerful for amp to replace the 4 channel and another for the mono. Im thinking Fosgate Power series in the 400-600 watt range for the 4/2channel and maybe something in the 2000 range for the mono. Do you think I am going to need to upgrade the guage of the wires? Im not exactly sure what I have right now off the top of my head, I did buy an amp kit, but I doubt I bought anything as powerful as 4 guage or something for it.

Third question. Can I just switch out the amps myself (higher guage wiring aside) with exactly the same wiring on the new ones? IE. just transfer for the same wiring configuration to the new ones. I guess I could just look in the manual but this would be easier for me to visualize since I did not install it in the first place.

If you upgrade to significantly higher power amps, then obviously the wiring will need to follow. If you're doing roughly the same amount of power, or only slightly more, then you should be if you're not getting any electrical issues now (lights dimming, voltage drops, etc). With 2500+ watts of power, you're going to need to do some SERIOUS upgrades. A HO alternator, extra battery(s) and the big 3 as well. Since you "broke" RCA's and your asking all these questions I don't advise you to take the wiring lightly, and have some one who knows what they are doing upgrade it for you.

Finally with the more powerful amps I am going to go ahead and buy new speakers too, I think 110 RMS each (I have 50 RMS each right now). Will the new amps support them? Looks like the Fosgate 400's push 200 RMS x 2 channel at 4 ohms bridge so I suppose they will. Do you think ill see as huge of a gain in loudness as I am hoping for by upgrading so significantly? My system sounds fine on the inside (especially with my new dynamat im installing //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif) but in all honesty, everything except the bass sounds weak outside the car even with the windows down. Kinda dissapointing.

Thanks in advance for all the help.

This right here just has be asking myself... WTF??? The sound inside the car is fine. You added dynamat. But the sound outside the car is weak? I fail to see a problem here. This means that your car is creating a pretty good seal and your road noise is outside the car, while the audio stays in. How exactly is this a problem? I'm pretty sure that's what people WANT to have.

Aye... I just don't get people sometimes. I don't know why you think your music needs to be loud outside of the car. Car audio is called CAR audio for a reason.

For the love of God, please just stop right now and think. You're wanting to add substantial wattage to your system, pay some one to wire all of it (because it HAS to be done), and don't even understand the upgrades you're planning on purchasing. All so some one OUTSIDE of the vehicle can hear the CAR audio. Pointless....

 

[Immortal 10+ year member]

Jesus dude, chill out. I typed this up fast and casually so I guess now I have to clarify since apparantly you decided to call me out:

1.) No I am not getting voltage problems now, im already considering the big 3. If I leave the subs monobloc as it is now (the bass is fine) and just upgrade the multi since the speaker volume is my major problem (hearing the songs over the bass while maintaining the bass SPQ level and intensity), you really think im gonna need batteries/capacitors/huge wiring?

2) I "broke" an RCA because its installed on the back of my seats and I was trying to fold them down too fast and it stressed one of the metal pins on a connector and it snapped. Im in not an inept idiot, I was just careless.

3.) The entire point of the third question was to emphasize that I wanted more volume, albiet I worded it poorly. The comment about hearing it outside was a joke about showing off. Either answer my question or dont, but dont jump in here and judge me like im some retarded kid with too much money and no idea what hes doing. Thats why I'm here to get advice before I make any purchases.

Anybody have any actual answers for my questions?

 

[ronjon228 10+ year member]

I did give you ACTUAL answers. Maybe you were too busy trying to hear the music outside your car to read them.

If you recall correctly, you're the one who stated something about over 2000w total. Go back and read that again if you need clarification. To that, I said YES you will need to upgrade wiring, battery, and ALTERNATOR. Capacitors are a band-aid, not a solution to the problem. Avoid them.

Also, if your subs are overpowering your mids and tweeters, there is one simple solution that seems to elude you. TURN DOWN THE SUB. Can it be any simpler??

 

[Immortal 10+ year member]

Maybe you are to busy being a stuck up *** hijacking my thread with your hate to read too.

"Also, if your subs are overpowering your mids and tweeters, there is one simple solution that seems to elude you. TURN DOWN THE SUB. Can it be any simpler?? "

What part of "since the speaker volume is my major problem (hearing the songs over the bass while maintaining the bass SPQ level and intensity)" is difficult to comprehend? I DONT WANT to turn down the sub. Thats my entire point! I didnt buy a system to have barely-there bass and volume thats not nearly as loud as I want it.

As for hearing it outside, Im in college right now and I like to go places with my friends. If I want to end up on the beach/park/frat house/friends house/WHEREVER and pop the trunk to have some music to party to, I sure as hell want to be able to hear it.

 

[ronjon228 10+ year member]

As for hearing it outside, Im in college right now and I like to go places with my friends. If I want to end up on the beach/park/frat house/friends house/WHEREVER and pop the trunk to have some music to party to, I sure as hell want to be able to hear it.

So at first it was stupid statement, then it was a joke, now it's back to having some normality to it... Which one is it man?

I'm seriously not hating at all. I'm trying to save you the trouble of spending a bunch of money on something that you don't need, or can't comprehend why you would want. That's all.

I apologize for coming off as being arrogant, because I can assure you I'm not. I work for my money just like every other blue collar guy out there. That's why I was trying to help you out and save some of it.

Ok, so enough with the arguments, it's not getting us anywhere. Let's start over...

You need your mids and tweeters to be louder correct? You have 50w RMS going to each side right now? As a whole right, meaning the mid bass driver and tweeter are sharing the 50w? If this is the case, then you could definitely benefit from a better amp to push these. Since you're happy with the low end, leave that be. It will save you from having to do any major electrical work. For the mids and tweets, I think you would be better off with a 2-channel amp OR 4-channel amp bridged. Is your current amp bridged or not? Also, what amp model is it so I can get some power ratings and figure out what to recommend.

It doesn't really matter if you go with a 2-channel or 4, just as long as the total output is going to get you were you want to be with volume levels. I prefer using a 4-channel and bridging it. That way if I ever want to run active, or add more speakers (rear fill) I have that option. Just more future proofing/flexibility with a 4-channel.

Again, let me know which amp you have for the mids/tweets and how it's wired (bridged, not, etc).

Then we'll go from there.

Edit: Just noticed you're using a 100x4 amp. I definitely need the amps model/maker to determine the RMS wattage and specs. If your running a 100x4 amp bridged to 2-channels and that's RMS rating, you're likely sending 250-300w PER SIDE to your mids/tweets. If this is the case, your amp is fine, you'd be much better off upgrading the speakers.

 

[Immortal 10+ year member]

Sorry for overreacting a bit myself, it just seemed like you ignored most of what I was saying for a rant. Anyway...

The Equipment:

I have two Maxxsonics liscened (read: cheap) Crunch amps, a 1000w and 100w 4 channel.

http://www.maxxsonics.com/crunch/PZ_main.html

Their site is kinda crap unfortunately

Here are their stats:

P 1000.1

1000W 1-Channel A/B Class Mono Amplifier

250W x 1-Ch @ 4-Ohms or

500W x 1-Ch @ 2-Ohms or (running this now for subs)

1000W x 1-Ch @ 1-Ohm Dynamic Music Watts

4 Channel: I believe this is the amp in question:

http://caraudiosecurity.com/shop/product/products_id/5414.html

Unfortunately I cannot run out to my car right now to confirm (**** school parking is like 2 miles away from where I am right now) and my box/manual is at my mother's house. But that looks like it should be it.

At that point my mindset was to buy the cheapest amp that would push the watts I needed for the speakers since I needed to save money for the installation.

Also I have 4 of these speakers:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/CarAudioVideo/Speakers/A-Series/Pioneer/TS-A6871R

3-Way, 240 max, 50 RMS.

Ok the setup:

As far as I can tell, the mono runs the subs in parallel at 500w just fine.

The 4 channel is bridged in 2 channel mode, I assume its pushing 300 watts (according to that site) to each side of the car to power the two speakers on each site. EDIT: Just saw your edit, seems like that is the case.

I wanted to upgrade with fosgate speakers all around that were at 110 RMS, but I just realized they were 6x9 when my slot is 6x8.

This is the closest speaker that will fit and well assume these for now:

http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/products/product_details.asp?cat_id=3&series_id=34&family_id=15&item_id=91997&locale=en_US&p_status=

But 75RMS seems likes its still going to be too weak. Any other brands make a 6x8 speaker of particular quality and high RMS?

You keep mentioning the mids and tweeters. I have 3 way speakers rather than seperate components, so im not really sure what you are talking about in reference to these.

Also if that is the case I believe I will save some money and go for a 2 channel if I decide to upgrade since I dont expect to be adding more speakers in any unconventional spots like boxes or in the trunk.

 

[ronjon228 10+ year member]

Ok, let me sort this out. Right now you're running all 4 of those speakers off that 4-channel amp, then your sub from the mono amp correct?

If this is the case, you're most likely running that 4-channel amp at either 2ohms bridged x2 (series) or 8ohms bridged x2 (parallel). If it's running at 8ohms then that would explain the weak power output. If it's running at 2ohms, it definitely should be getting loud enough.

Also, I'm having trouble getting a real RMS rating for the amp. The one site says that 300x2 @ 4ohms is max power, the other claims it as RMS. I'll have to do some more digging to give you a final answer. Right now, it's looking like you should ditch all those 6x8's and get yourself 1 quality component set. You can get 6" components that should fit right into your 6x8 holes with an adapter mount/baffle. Then, just figure out where to mount the tweeters which is incredibly easy.

I'll get back to you after I do some more searching on this amp...

Well, I'm looking for the true specs on this amp and almost every place is claiming that it's 300x2 RMS @ 4ohms. I find this hard to believe. Most likely it's fairly overrated. That being said, even if it's pushing 200w RMS it would be just fine for a quality component set. That's the direction I would take first. I'm pretty sure Phoenix Gold makes the RSD comps in a 6" size. Ideally you would want to go with 6.5" as they would give you more sound. Is there any way you can fit 6.5" or do you have to use the factory positions without doing any modification?

 

[Immortal 10+ year member]

Thank you for your help so far. Let me give you a couple more specifics for your search, and also I will be checking this thread regularly tonight since im stuck home and am just messing around on the internet researching things right now anyway.

"Right now you're running all 4 of those speakers off that 4-channel amp, then your sub from the mono amp correct?"

I believe so. I did temporarily reroute power from the output of the mono to the 4 channel when I broke the rca connector before I figured out about the 2 channel fix to continue having music, if that tells you anything. Remember they installed it for me but that sounds correct.

"Also, I'm having trouble getting a real RMS rating for the amp. The one site says that 300x2 @ 4ohms is max power, the other claims it as RMS. I'll have to do some more digging to give you a final answer. Right now, it's looking like you should ditch all those 6x8's and get yourself 1 quality component set. You can get 6" components that should fit right into your 6x8 holes with an adapter mount/baffle. Then, just figure out where to mount the tweeters which is incredibly easy. "

I thought speakers ran at 4-Ohms. If its at 8 it wouldnt be running at the 50 watt RMS?

Yes the speakers I fully intend to upgrade. Im a big fan of fosgate (I have their subs) so I was looking at their speakers anyway. It seems most speakers top out at about 100 RMS, so maybe 75 with a better amp wired right would do the job after all. I guess I would like to do components but I will have to research how to install them.

I am currently looking at various brands of speakers, what sizes exactly will fit in my holes? Ford is wierd apparantly and uses 6x8, so 6x9 is out, but can I use anything under that?

EDIT: It seems 5x7 is the same thing as 6x8

 

[ronjon228 10+ year member]

No problem man, I came off as a jerk earlier, but I just didn't want to see you do all these things and end up not being happy in the end.

I'll lay it out for you like this. And PLEASE don't take this the wrong way. It's nothing against you, or your component choice. Just general things that I follow as a rule.

First off, component sets are almost always going to sound MUCH better than any coax speaker. This is because you can easily mount the separates (mid and tweeter) in any location you choose. Also, by removing the tweeter from the midbass driver, you get cleaner sound from both speakers. Making the overall sound quality much better. You can get good sound out of coaxs, but it's much harder. And with 5x7's, or 6x8's it's complicates things even more. Round speakers tend to have better SQ than any odd shaped speaker. I highly recommend you get 1 good component set and install that up front. If you don't feel comfortable doing it, have some one you know help or get it done at a shop. You'll be so happy you did in the end.

The amp you have now will be fine for just about any component set you pick in low to mid range category. There are plenty of great sound component sets out there for $150 or even under that you can consider, and your amp will push them just fine.

Also, under powering speakers is never a good idea. A common myth is that overpowering speakers will blow them. When it's MUCH more common that speakers get blown due to under powering. Your best bet is to match or exceed the "nominal" wattage of the speaker you are sending the amp to.

I think right now you definitely need to get that sub wired to your mono amp. Then, use the 4-channel to power the new speakers. You'll want to bridge the 4-channel into 2-channels, giving you that "300w" (hehe) of power x2 @ 4ohms.

As for the ohms, here's the deal. If you have 2 speakers running off of 1-channel (2 if bridged) then the speakers have to be wired either in series, or in parallel since they are only using ONE input on the amp. That's why I said your speakers are running either 2ohms or 8ohms, as they are wired together.

I attached a diagram of what 2ohms would be. Notice that all 4 channels of the amp are used, but only one speaker lead of each. Effectively making 4 channels into 2 by bridging the speakers.

They probably originally had all 4 speakers wired to their own channels. Meaning that you'd be running the front speakers off of channels 1 and 2 and then the rears of channels 3 and 4. If you only want to run 1 set of speakers (for instance a component set) the 4-channel amp will effectively become a 2-channel by means of bridging it. It would be wired up exactly the same as the diagram, just to 2 speakers, instead of 4. Making the final impedance 4ohms instead of 2.

 

[Immortal 10+ year member]

From what I have been reading component speakers are the way to go. What size of speakers and baffles should I use in my door hole?

Money isnt too much of an issue since I am looking to use EBAY if possible but I want more powerful speakers. The higher the RMS the better.

Fosgate makes two POWER 2-way component sets that run at 100 RMS with speaker sizes at 5.25 and 6.5in. Will these fit with baffles in my odd shaped slots?

I assume this would not be in the low-mid power category so I suppose at least a small upgrade in amp size would benefit me. I like fosgate as I mentioned so even if I replaced it with a 2 or 4 channel at probably 400 watts (which seems to be the next size up) it probably wouldnt run me more than $200 on EBAY.

You mentioned not wanting to underpower, would upgrading the amps (and speakers) overpower it? I mean other than price is there any reason not to upgrade the amp?

No I said the 2 subs are wired series parallel so that there is just 1 wire (neg/pos) going to the mono output. Thusly the mono IS powering the subs and the speakers are powered by the 4 channel.

"You'll want to bridge the 4-channel into 2-channels, giving you that "300w" (hehe) of power x2 @ 4ohms."

I thought it already was?

 

[ronjon228 10+ year member]

You know if you make 3/4 MDF baffles they SHOULD work. My RSD's fit in my Regal which originally had 5.25" speakers. I just made an MDF baffle that connects to the stock baffle to give me a little extra mounting depth and they fit just fine. I'd say with 6x8's you should be fine with an MDF baffle.

Also, RMS doesn't really mean too much when it comes to speakers or component sets. For amps, yes, but for speakers it's more of an estimate of what kind of power they can take, rather than a set limit or power like it is on an amp. Ask around, get opinions and ask people why they like/dislike their component set. Then go from there based on your preferences. Ie. do you want bright highs, lots of midbass, good midrange, etc.

Go with 6.5's. With the baffle they should fit just fine and will give you much richer sound than the 5.25's. And just go with 1 set. Try it first with just the front stage and experiment with tweeter locations. They are VERY easy to flush or surface mount. Just try different spots with tape or velcro before making any final decisions and drilling any holes you may need for wiring, flush mounts, etc.

If you get that done and are still not satisfied, then try some rear fill. I think once you realize how loud and clean 1 good component set sounds though, you'll forgot all about the rear fill and be much happier than you are now.

About the amp being bridged, it prolly is, so disregard my previous statements. Doesn't matter anyway, as you'll be getting new speakers anyway. Leave the sub the way it is on the mono amp, you said you like it so that part is good to go. So for now, until you get the new component set just leave it as is. Once you get the component set, you can do the wiring for those bridged and you'll be all set.

Again, I think you have no real reason to change the 4-channel amp. It's plenty of power for mostly any component set in your price range. No need to upgrade something that will work just fine. Even if that amp is grossly over rated you're probably still getting over 100w, most likely closer to 150-200w per side. Plenty of power.

Also, overpowering isn't a bad thing. In fact, in many cases, it's best. You just have to make sure you set the amp gains correctly and don't send a clipped signal. When you do this, your not having to turn your gains, volume levels, or any other db boosters up. In the long run it's easier on the equipment, and sounds much better when done properly. For instance, I'm running 150w RMS to each side of my RSD's. And they are rated at 60w RMS. So I'm more than doubling the RMS power of the speakers. However, my amp gain is 1/4 or maybe 1/3 at max and my volume never goes much over 60%. It sounds MUCH better than it did with the 50w RMS I was sending the RSD's previously.

 

[ronjon228 10+ year member]

BTW, what kind of car do you drive? Also, were are the 4 speakers you have now located? Just wondering because if they hooked them up the amp bridged, that means you have no fader control for front/rear. That alone would be enough to drive me nuts as I can't stand heavy rear fill.

 

[Immortal 10+ year member]

2004 Ford Escape, the speakers are in the stock locations in the 4 doors. No there is no fader but I dont really mind that because I figure when the car is closed the more sound the better.

When you recommend getting 1 component set, do you suggest keeping the speakers in the back or replacing them with better coaxials/another component? Or fading them/removing them completely?

Ill respond to your post in more depth when I get time to process it all.

Right but it wouldnt HURT to upgrade the amp, no? As you cna tell I really want to do this for some reason lol

 

[ronjon228 10+ year member]

Well, it's your money. So if you want different amps, then so be it. Just don't see any need for it. I do understand though, I'm currently upgrading my amps for no particular reason so I can't say I wouldn't do it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Also, I recommend removing the rear speakers all together. Well, not physically. Keep them physically installed, but don't wire them up. Try it first with ONLY the component set. Then, if it's not loud enough, hook up the rears, and fade them out, then SLOWLY fade them back in until it's loud enough for you. I do think you'll not miss them though. A good component set by itself will get plenty loud in most cars. Basically the best rear fill is no rear fill, but if you do have it, you want it to be barely audible. This will keep your sound stage up front, where it should be.