Educate me: Same cone area, increased power = louder?

[xtremebassjunky 10+ year member]

lol kk

 

[mrogowski 5,000+ posts]

Ok, pic 1 has identical drivers in identical boxes in identical environments - all you see is one curve colour for now since they are well, identical:

Pic 2 shows one driver (yellow) having 500 watts applied, the other (red) 1000 watts. According to the OP the one receiving 1000 watts should be louder, and of course it is:

Pic 3 shows the difference in displacement between the two - red of course producing more displacement and therefore more output. So if the displacement is the same so will the output:

 

[Supergumby5000 5,000+ posts]

But im talking different drivers?

I am saying that if i feed a sub 200rms and it displaces 500cu cm., and i feed a DIFFERENT sub 39404390490rms and it displaces the same 500cu cm, will they meter exactly the same?

I am wondering if the structure of the sub is effecting output, as in the sub that is taking 34893489384rms vs the sub that is taking 200rms requires a different force to get the cone moving in order to have such a displacement. Does that force effect the overall air pressure in comparison to less power?

 

[mrogowski 5,000+ posts]

But im talking different drivers?
I am saying that if i feed a sub 200rms and it displaces 500cu cm., and i feed a DIFFERENT sub 39404390490rms and it displaces the same 500cu cm, will they meter exactly the same?

I am wondering if the structure of the sub is effecting output, as in the sub that is taking 34893489384rms vs the sub that is taking 200rms requires a different force to get the cone moving in order to have such a displacement. Does that force effect the overall air pressure in comparison to less power?

But if everything is equal why would you get different output? I think you just answered your question //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Let me add: you take one driver with 85db 1w/1m sensitivity and put 1 watt through it to get 85db. You take a second driver with 83db 1/w/1m sensitivity and you put 2 watts to get 85db. They are the same loudness and they are displacing the same volume despite the fact that you had to apply a higher force to the second unit to achieve the same displacement as the first.

 

[Supergumby5000 5,000+ posts]

But is everything is equal why would you get different output? I think you just answered your question //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

everything is NOT equal though, let me try explaining one more time, i think im not making much sense

Substage 1: 12" sub, rated 200rms, ran on 200rms, displaces 500cu cm

substage 2:12" sub, rated 4krms, ran on 4krms, displaces 500 cu cm.

Say substage 1 is constructed of a single spider setup, thus, the 200RMS obviously is going to move that quite easily. The sub requires a small force to move the cone

Substage 2 is constructed of a multiple-spider setup making it much more stiff, requiring more power, and thus a larger force to move the cone.

Does the energy from the force moving the cone of the subwoofer effect its output? or is there some other characteristics that cause higher RMS subs to perform better on the meter than lower RMS subs?

 

[squeak12 10+ year member]

If they displace the same volume of air, I would imagine that they create the same pressure. I imagine stiffer spiders are needed to help prevent the sub from bottoming out as easily.

As far as why do higher RMS subs meter louder, I would think it's because they are more prevalent in competition. On top of that, how many 500 RMS subs have the excursion of a 2000 watt sub?

 

[Phlipbak 10+ year member]

It would take more power to make the cone move with the SAME force since its stiff bud.. so it's the same

 

[Phlipbak 10+ year member]

If they displace the same volume of air, I would imagine that they create the same pressure. I imagine stiffer spiders are needed to help prevent the sub from bottoming out as easily.
As far as why do higher RMS subs meter louder, I would think it's because they are more prevalent in competition. On top of that, how many 500 RMS subs have the excursion of a 2000 watt sub?

BINGO, except many subs max at 30mm, that's when the 1w/1m sensitivity, ENCLOSURRREEEE, vehicle, etc. comes into play

 

[mrogowski 5,000+ posts]

everything is NOT equal though, let me try explaining one more time, i think im not making much sense
Substage 1: 12" sub, rated 200rms, ran on 200rms, displaces 500cu cm

substage 2:12" sub, rated 4krms, ran on 4krms, displaces 500 cu cm.

Say substage 1 is constructed of a single spider setup, thus, the 200RMS obviously is going to move that quite easily. The sub requires a small force to move the cone

Substage 2 is constructed of a multiple-spider setup making it much more stiff, requiring more power, and thus a larger force to move the cone.

Does the energy from the force moving the cone of the subwoofer effect its output? or is there some other characteristics that cause higher RMS subs to perform better on the meter than lower RMS subs?

See the bold. This is where you are getting confused. It is a matter of how efficient driver A is over driver B; you need less force on driver A to displace the same amount of air. If you apply more force to driver A it will be louder than driver B because Driver A will then be displacing more air (e.g. hypothetically it will displace 550cu. cm over driver B's 500cu cm).

 

[squeak12 10+ year member]

It would take more power to make the cone move with the SAME force since its stiff bud.. so it's the same

But you can only get so much linear excursion out of one spider, so you must upgrade to multiple spiders. Let's say you can get 15mm of linear excursion out of a single spider. To get more than 15mm with multiple spiders, you will need more power, but with multiple spiders you are capable of more linear excursion with even more power, thus a louder sub.

 

[Pioneer~Saturn 5,000+ posts]

Good question. I'm quite interested.
Since everyone is bashful, here's a vague start. A greater pressure is created at the cone. More cone inertia, pushed with a faster initial acceleration (higher motor strength) should yield higher pressure, assuming the same air volume is covered by the cone.

Similarity to a race-car suspension vs. cadillac... you can drop a Lamborghini from 4 feet in the air, and it will compress alot less than a Dodge Ram. Same force, similar weight, different stiffness and deceleration.

pretty much how I would think it through/explain it

 

[teamquakecelica 10+ year member]

It's inertial force...

lets use boxing for example:

boxer A and B both throw a short 2' long jab that requires 20 joules (just an example to equate to wattage) of heat to create the motion for fighter A and 40 joules of heat for fighter B

Boxer A is a 115lb fly weight with 1.2lb hands

Boxer B is a 245lb heavyweight with 3lb hands

the dramatic amt of difference in the amt of heat energy used (joules) that was required to make the motion coupled with strength and weight(larger motor) lb/in impact weight will be much greater with fighter B ( the larger motored woofer)

Ryan