Cleanest Amplifier

[paikiah 5,000+ posts]

yea whats going on, "bocean" is claiming that he hears the difference between various top quality amps, and some other dude is over here givin props to legacy.... hah, legacy.

legacy used to be a top notch company... USED to be...

 

[WarDrumz 10+ year member]

I am surprised that people still have trouble grasping this issue.

Care to comment on post #152 then?

If you can explain, that would help me "grasp" this issue.

 

[paikiah 5,000+ posts]

uh oh.. it's gonna get ugly again...

 

[ss3079 5,000+ posts]

uh oh.. it's gonna get ugly again...

Sometimes that's what it takes to get a point across //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

But, I know what you mean.

- Steve

 

[adam71 5,000+ posts]

I seriously doubt it will get ugly. In my opinion it never did before. There was no insults or flaming or any other hostilities going on. I read the whole thread and only a couple got close to the line but no one really crossed it.

It'll be fine guys. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Asmod3us 10+ year member]

Sorry for bringing this thread up from so long ago, but I just read through it all. I understand that a watt is a watt, and all that, however, I'm still unclear as to how all amps sound the same. I am not looking to start any sort of arguement here, just looking for some clarification. Mostly, I'm wondering why people run, for example, an arc amp, instead of a pyramid putting out the same amount of power?

Is it because all amps will amplify a signal by the same amount, assuming the ouput is the same; however, the signal being amplified is not the same in both amps due to onboard processing, etc? I guess this is to say, with external processing and EQ's, etc, all amps sound the same?

Thanks, and again, sorry for bring up such an old post.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

If the pyramid was actually putting out the claimed power, and the gain section was bypassed, and any onboard filtering (crossover or EQ) was bypassed, then the amp would sound the same as any other. The problem with saying this about Pyramid is that they tend to use the cheapest of the cheap transistors and MOSFETs that do not have an output that is anywhere near linear. At really low power the distortion from these non linearities is minimal and inaudible. As the power output increases, the distortion starts to become really noticable. Another big selling point for the Arc amps and other high-end brands is the reliability which is something that Pyramid can't brag about. Get away from the swap meet brands and into most any reputable brand and there are no aubible differences in the amplification sections of the amps. The onboard processing might add some coloration but the power section should be transparent. If it isn't the amp is not functioning as designed or intended.

 

[Asmod3us 10+ year member]

So essentially, a more expensive amp sounds better because its putting out the power it claims, while cheaper amps are unable to constantly put out the power they claim? In other words, any two amps that put out the same amount of power in the real world, under a real load, will sound the same, bar any sound processing?

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Read the rest. Any two amps that are putting out the same power at similar distortion levels (the Pyramid amp might do it's rated max power but at 10%+ distortion while the Arc does the same power @ less than 1%) will sound the same. Richard Clark (as much as I think the guy puts out a lot of bad science) has a challenge that if you can hear the difference between two amps he will pay you $10k. No one has taken the money and that is because he sets the amps up as described: the gain sections are bypassed, the processing is bypassed and both are set to produce 1W. At 1W any amp should be linear. I saw another test where there was a room of "audiophiles" that were given an A/B comparison of two amplifiers producing the same power into the same set of speakers. In a double blind test (the test proctor didn't know which amp was playing at any given time so he could not influence the listeners) these trained ears could not tell the difference between a $10K+ home receiver and the amp out of a $20 clock radio.

The differences between two car systems come down to the speakers and the install. The install is by far the more important of the two. If it weren't then every competitor would be using the exact same set of speakers. The majority of the distortion in a system comes from the speakers themselves. It is usually enough to mask distortion of lower levels elsewhere in the system. Factor in the cancellation caused by differing pathlengths from the different speakers to the listener's ears and it makes it even more impossible to tell the difference between amps in a car. Best advice I can give is get a reputable brand of amp so you know that you are getting a reliable product and then spend the money you saved on the amps to get the best speakers you can afford and spend a lot of time and effort making sure that the install is as good as you can make it.

 

[calichaz]

in my opinion XTANT's are the cleanest amps you can get........mckintosh is up there, the JL's actually sound real good too.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

in my opinion XTANT's are the cleanest amps you can get........mckintosh is up there, the JL's actually sound real good too.

Have you read any of this thread? A good amp will not "sound" like anything. If it does, you have problems.

 

[WarDrumz 10+ year member]

Read the rest. Any two amps that are putting out the same power at similar distortion levels (the Pyramid amp might do it's rated max power but at 10%+ distortion while the Arc does the same power @ less than 1%) will sound the same. Richard Clark (as much as I think the guy puts out a lot of bad science) has a challenge that if you can hear the difference between two amps he will pay you $10k. No one has taken the money and that is because he sets the amps up as described: the gain sections are bypassed, the processing is bypassed and both are set to produce 1W. At 1W any amp should be linear. I saw another test where there was a room of "audiophiles" that were given an A/B comparison of two amplifiers producing the same power into the same set of speakers. In a double blind test (the test proctor didn't know which amp was playing at any given time so he could not influence the listeners) these trained ears could not tell the difference between a $10K+ home receiver and the amp out of a $20 clock radio.
The differences between two car systems come down to the speakers and the install. The install is by far the more important of the two. If it weren't then every competitor would be using the exact same set of speakers. The majority of the distortion in a system comes from the speakers themselves. It is usually enough to mask distortion of lower levels elsewhere in the system. Factor in the cancellation caused by differing pathlengths from the different speakers to the listener's ears and it makes it even more impossible to tell the difference between amps in a car. Best advice I can give is get a reputable brand of amp so you know that you are getting a reliable product and then spend the money you saved on the amps to get the best speakers you can afford and spend a lot of time and effort making sure that the install is as good as you can make it.

VERY well put //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

You consistantly give some of the best info on this site.

I enjoy reading your posts //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[DARKHART 10+ year member]

 Richard Clark (as much as I think the guy puts out a lot of bad science)

Helotaxi, please explain this statement. I'm not trying to flame or start something, it's just that I've always found him to be one of the most knowledgeable people in this industry. He also has never been defeated in any class that he's competed in (not to my knowledge), as well as also having taken the undefeated Speaker Works Grand National and improving on it taking it to the next level.

I'd simply like to understand your perspective about Mr. Clark....... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

He usually is correct in his conclusions, but his "proof" never stands up to scrutiny when applying scientific method. He decides what the test should show to make his point and then designs the test to show what he wants. Look at the famous "cap test," for example. He puts a cap (given it was 15 farad which is pretty large) on a 2kW system that was running off a measly 80A alt, cranked it to hell and back and said that since it didn't keep the voltage at a higher level that caps were worthless. That test prooves that caps can't make current, but anyone with half a clue about electricity knows that already. The alt never had a chance in his test. Throw a 200A alt on there and try again. I think the results would be quite different. The voltage would be much more constant than without the cap. A cap won't fix an electrical system that is wholly outclassed, but it will make an already adequate electrical system better and it may help a marginal charging system keep up with the occasional transient where it would otherwise struggle.

He has claimed that a chassis ground is always better than a 1/0 wire running back to the battery. On some cars this might be true. On the vast majority of newer unibodies there is no way in hell. Manville Smith of JL has called him out on this and he refuses to take the "Pepsi Challenge" so to speak.

He and David Navone had another "demo" that was supposed to show that adding a second battery to your system was going to hurt the charging system. This involved a person on a bicycle pedaling to turn an alternator that was charging a battery powering some light bulbs. They kept wiring lightbulbs in parallel until they started to dim, basically the point where the guy pedaling could no longer provide enough current to charge the battery as fast as the bulbs were discharging it. At this point the battery is in a state of constant discharge. They add another battery at this point and the guy still can't keep up. Well, duh! He can't keep one battery charged. He's tired at this point, too. Why should he be able to keep two charged. The glaring flaws in their "experiment": 1) an internal combustion engine does not get tired. As a load is placed on a modern engine, ie the alt having to work a bit harder to generate more current, it will speed up the idle to compensate. A person can't do that because fatigue becomes a factor. 2) If a battery is in a state of discharge then adding another battery will just make it so two batteries are in a state of discharge. Two batteries in parallel will require more current to charge. So what? If the electrical system is adequate and the alt is providing enough current for the loads on the charging system, the battery will not be in a state of discharge and adding another battery will not hurt anything. He generalizes too much and applies very little real thought into his "experiments." He has a very inflated sense of his own knowledge and self worth. He has gotten so used to everyone accepting everything he says as gospel that he now figures that he can say anything and not really be able to back it up and everyone will take whatever he says at face value. I'm not saying that he is not knowledgable and experienced. He is. I am saying that his arrogance has gotten in the way of whatever logical and critical thinking may have once gone on in his head.

Just for the record, he did almost nothing to improve the SOUND of the GN. Speaker Works had the car sounding nearly perfect when he bought it. He added some gimmicky stuff that was ahead of its time like integrating a PC into the management of the cooling and monitoring of the components in the system, but that in no way affected the sound. The car was better than anything around when he bought it, and by a long way, why shouldn't it continue to win? Everyone else was so floored by the sound of the car originally that they were playing catch-up and it was going to take them years to do it.

 

[DARKHART 10+ year member]

Thank you for your response, that certainly puts a new spin on things........ //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif