Buikd me a system


donmcgowen

Junior Member
Mar 2, 2014
39
-2
Bloomingdale, IL
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
Music is recorded in 2.1 not 4.1 or 5.1. rear speakers and center channel dont really add any SQ, it actually screws everything up unless you have a unit that can upmix the signal like a jbl MS8 but those are rare. You will be louder but thats it, you lose sound stage. DSP tuned right turns your system from just noise and music to being able to see a live performance in your car, from every instrument to the singer walking back and forth, you see everything via sound. Your system is not just good, it can even get loud, and you can listen to it extremely loud and it wont fatigue your ears at all, its smooth as butter. Id say the sound processing and tuning is more important than every other piece in your setup hands down. Nothing else comes close assuming we are dealing with at least below average gear(D+) and up and not bottom of the barrel garbage.
So that adds to my question about processing. Normal audio is 2.1, but wouldn't a processor allow for a real surround sound like my home stereo? Like mids and high come from front, mids and lows from rear. Maybe one guitar coming from right and another from the left? Im completely new to processing so I definitely want to include it.

What would you recommend for a decent processor? I've looked at the audio control stuff, just not sure which would work best.
 

donmcgowen

Junior Member
Mar 2, 2014
39
-2
Bloomingdale, IL
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
Are you going to install it all or should install cost be factored into budget?
So Im planning to install myself but I would like a good audio guy to tune it for me. I can install the hardware and sound deadening and wiring with no issue. But I have no clue about tuning. So some cost will go to install, but I have plenty of buffer with cost. I just want a dream clean crisp sounding system.
 

Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
5,000+ posts
Feb 5, 2013
18,546
798
South Coast Metro, CA
So that adds to my question about processing. Normal audio is 2.1, but wouldn't a processor allow for a real surround sound like my home stereo? Like mids and high come from front, mids and lows from rear. Maybe one guitar coming from right and another from the left? Im completely new to processing so I definitely want to include it.

What would you recommend for a decent processor? I've looked at the audio control stuff, just not sure which would work best.
The only processor that upmixes into a dolby 5.1/7.1 properly is the JBL MS8 which is discontinued. All other sound processors just give you 8 channels to work with but still output 2.1 stereo audio straight from the source. There is no actual surround at all. You are just having multiple speakers in different locations outputting 2.1 stereo. For reference thats all channel stereo mode in home audio. You also need to leave behind all knowledge of home audio and keep it out of car audio, these are two different beasts with different purposes.

What the processor is for is to achieve proper blend between sub, midbass, midrange, and tweeter by splitting the signal up via crossovers that you can adjust specified frequencies each driver takes care of through the software.This is needed because you are in a chaotic acoustical environment with reflections this helps tame peaks and dips which give a smooth response. So each driver takes care of its specified range of frequencies. The DSP also time corrects each driver so that all sounds waves hit your ears at the same time. Then has a 31 band parametric EQ to further fine tune everything for perfect SQ.

Any kind of rear speakers would destroy the soundstage completely by pulling the stage from the front of the dash back to the driver seat and messes up instrument separation and overall frequency response due to different angles, reflections, drivers etc ... If you want dream SQ, get rid of the idea of running rears completely.

As for a dsp, helix and alpine is top dog. For budget (but still great dsp, the dayton dsp 408 and bluetooth dongle is around 180 and does the job just fine. You can Download the app now and play around with it see if you like the interface. Most other dsps need a laptop to tune.
 
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donmcgowen

Junior Member
Mar 2, 2014
39
-2
Bloomingdale, IL
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #24
The only processor that upmixes into a dolby 5.1/7.1 properly is the JBL MS8 which is discontinued. All other sound processors just give you 8 channels to work with but still output 2.1 stereo audio straight from the source. There is no actual surround at all. You are just having multiple speakers in different locations outputting 2.1 stereo. For reference thats all channel stereo mode in home audio. You also need to leave behind all knowledge of home audio and keep it out of car audio, these are two different beasts with different purposes.

What the processor is for is to achieve proper blend between sub, midbass, midrange, and tweeter by splitting the signal up via crossovers that you can adjust specified frequencies each driver takes care of through the software.This is needed because you are in a chaotic acoustical environment with reflections this helps tame peaks and dips which give a smooth response. So each driver takes care of its specified range of frequencies. The DSP also time corrects each driver so that all sounds waves hit your ears at the same time. Then has a 31 band parametric EQ to further fine tune everything for perfect SQ.

Any kind of rear speakers would destroy the soundstage completely by pulling the stage from the front of the dash back to the driver seat and messes up instrument separation and overall frequency response due to different angles, reflections, drivers etc ... If you want dream SQ, get rid of the idea of running rears completely.

As for a dsp, helix and alpine is top dog. For budget (but still great dsp, the dayton dsp 408 and bluetooth dongle is around 180 and does the job just fine. You can Download the app now and play around with it see if you like the interface. Most other dsps need a laptop to tune.
Thanks Jeff,
That is some great info. So you said not to run rear speakers. I assume that doesn't include subs. The system is going into a 2021 f150 supercrew.

My last question is about subs. I was thinking of three or four 8s vs two 10s but my question is this. What rms power level should I aim for to get some really good bass? My goal was maybe a Kicker or JL Audio amp 2000w rms mono. The issue Im seeing is most 8" subs are only rated to 250w rms. So would I really get some killer bass with three 8s and a 1000w rms amp? Just seems a lot less power. But I do remember back in the 1990s with my 250w Rockford Fosgate amp used to give some good bass. So I dont know.

Does rms watts really make all the difference for how loud the system is?
 

Jeffdachef

Gunz That Turn on Nunz
5,000+ posts
Feb 5, 2013
18,546
798
South Coast Metro, CA
Thanks Jeff,
That is some great info. So you said not to run rear speakers. I assume that doesn't include subs. The system is going into a 2021 f150 supercrew.

My last question is about subs. I was thinking of three or four 8s vs two 10s but my question is this. What rms power level should I aim for to get some really good bass? My goal was maybe a Kicker or JL Audio amp 2000w rms mono. The issue Im seeing is most 8" subs are only rated to 250w rms. So would I really get some killer bass with three 8s and a 1000w rms amp? Just seems a lot less power. But I do remember back in the 1990s with my 250w Rockford Fosgate amp used to give some good bass. So I dont know.

Does rms watts really make all the difference for how loud the system is?
Box design makes a bigger difference. If you are in a truck and doing under the seat make sure you have subs forward and port to the side door. Dont go sealed or else you wont get any decent result. You can get loud on 250 watts still if the design is right. If the design is wrong, you wont get loud even with 5000 watts.


Btw you are looking at weak ass 8s.
Sundown x 8 is 800 rms. Sundown sa 8 is 500. Dc audio m3 8 is 600rms. Soundqubed 8 is 600 rms.
 

Abelfei

CarAudio.com Newbie
Aug 28, 2020
12
7
ND
For what its worth :

I have a 2018 F-150 non B&O. I originally wanted to keep stock radio/screen so I did:

JL Audio VXI 400/4 powering JL C2 650 coax in rear for fill and JL C3 650 2 ways up front. The VXI has TUN software for DSP.
JL Audio HD1200/1 powering JL Audio Stealthbox with (2) 12" TW3d8 subs.
TuffMat on all the doors.

After all of this higher end non comp equipment and the money I spent, I thought it sounded like garbage. I deduced this was mainly because I tired to get by with the OEM head unit integration, but also the tweeter locations are just crap, and the door speakers are low. The system sounded thin and lacked clarity and pop. I changed the OEM unit out with a Kenwood Excelon DMX1057R. Now my subs are wayyyyyy more crisp and the speakers sound better, but still not what my old systems with Alpine Type R's sounded like. It must be the speaker and tweeter locations, cause my Retailer has spent many hours tuning and is very reputable in the state. Bottom line is, I think with the new F150's there is only so much you can do, but with a non B&O system having no access to an AMPro product yet, replacing the radio is the best way to go still. Honestly I dont think Audio Control or the JL Fix would do enough for the signal.

TL;DR : You can throw 8k at your truck, if you dont replace the head unit, you're going to be dissappointed.

PS. I wanted to go Fox Box with dual 10 non shallows, but i got jerked around for months and the box still hasnt showed up, so I went with Stealthbox. I know sealed truck boxes aren't popular, but this dual 12 stealthbox hits so clean and hard for SQL. Most of the time it is too much. I would vouch for these any day as long as you give it good clean power, 800 watts minimum. I am a drummer and very picky with my lows, especially the kick drum, and let me tell you, its as if the drummer is right under my seat with a perfectly tuned bass drum. I would never know these were shallows if i didnt buy them myself.

My next step will be going active.
 

JohnKuthe

CarAudio.com Veteran
Sep 9, 2016
2,130
-22
Missouri
Withouts proper sound processing, your whole 4 grand system will just sound like a 500 dollar system just saying. Yes it makes that much of a difference.
Yep! I finally took my car audio system over to Full Active EQ and a WORLD of improvement!


John Kuthe...
 

Popwarhomie

CarAudio.com Elite VIP
5,000+ posts
10+ year member
Jan 22, 2010
9,092
1,673
FL
Because John kunt is special. Only comes around bumping old post to talk about himself and his sexual attraction to his cars. ;)
 

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