Best sub for clarity?

IDQv3 12" D4= $279 shipped, authorized.

Cadence FXA-3001 Refurb (500wrms@2 ohm) from Cadence Direct on Ebay, with warranty = $60 shipped.

Prefab 1.0 cube Sealed box from Ebay = $40 shipped.

Total cost= $379

And will sound **** good.

Spend the rest on a good looking woman to ride with you, which will make it even more enjoyable. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
Yes, but if the woofer makes a "slow" transition from the forward to rearward stroke or vice versa you will get distortion. If the driver snaps from one direction to the other it will have less distortion. This is accomplished easily through BL linearization techniques like XBL^2 employed in the new Stereo Integrity drivers. I am not doubting that your drivers are good, but Nick does know what he is talking about quite well.
First, I think you misunderstood John's post. He was agreeing w/ Electrodynamic, not disagreeing with him. Their links say essentially the same thing; Inductance is the limiting factor in the "speed" (and hence bandwidth) of a driver.

Second, linear Bl is great for improving non-linear distortion but doesn't really address the issue of "speed"; i.e. inductance and bandwidth. You can have highly linear BL with sky high inductance that severely limits the bandwidth (and hence "speed") of the driver.

 
First, I think you misunderstood John's post. He was agreeing w/ Electrodynamic, not disagreeing with him. Their links say essentially the same thing; Inductance is the limiting factor in the "speed" (and hence bandwidth) of a driver.
Second, linear Bl is great for improving non-linear distortion but doesn't really address the issue of "speed"; i.e. inductance and bandwidth. You can have highly linear BL with sky high inductance that severely limits the bandwidth (and hence "speed") of the driver.
Very true, but the best linear techniques also reduce inductance. The biggest thing is to keep ALL of the T/S parameters linear over the linear stroke of the driver, the biggest being compliance and inductance. Compliance is somewhat hard to keep linear, but the motor John showed as well as the new motor for the Mag do accomplish linear inductance with their copper coted pole pieces.

 
Very true, but the best linear techniques also reduce inductance. The biggest thing is to keep ALL of the T/S parameters linear over the linear stroke of the driver, the biggest being compliance and inductance. Compliance is somewhat hard to keep linear, but the motor John showed as well as the new motor for the Mag do accomplish linear inductance with their copper coted pole pieces.
Linear inductance is not the same as low inductance //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

"Best" is a bit subjective. There's trade-offs being made with every design decision or implementation.......

 
Yes, but if the woofer makes a "slow" transition from the forward to rearward stroke or vice versa you will get distortion. If the driver snaps from one direction to the other it will have less distortion. This is accomplished easily through BL linearization techniques like XBL^2 employed in the new Stereo Integrity drivers. I am not doubting that your drivers are good, but Nick does know what he is talking about quite well. Also, that lambda motor doesn't look much different from a standard overhung design with a copper shorting ring.
BL linearization is a good thing. I'm not at all trying to downplay the Stereo Integrity woofers nor was I trying to debate against someone buying them. Nick is a good guy.

There is however no perfect motor, and there are unfortunately by products that are not good in the way BL linearization is often done. An underhung driver is going to have the most linear BL of any driver over it's operating range until the coil begins to exit the gap. The problem is that you have a small coil so power handling is decreased and power compression goes up. It's a tradeoff. You're also distributing flux over a large gap plate, meaning you are nowhere near saturation. The farther from saturation your field is, the more you can modulate the flux field as the coil moves. This means more distortion unless a proper shorting ring is used to eliminate this effect at all points throughout the travel, not just at rest. A copper cap on top of the pole doesn't do a whole lot as the coil is inward and not adjacent to it.

This goes for any driver where flux is distributed over multiple gaps as well as the underhung. You get benefit from having the same core inside and around the outside of the coil which linearizes inductance, but inductance is still high as the core on both sides is steel. You get the benefit of lower distortion due to flatter BL. But at the same time you can't keep the flux from moving without using a shorting ring and you have a shorter coil so less power handling. In a multiple gap design you also have air space between the gaps. This air space has much less flux density than even the steel has. As a result the field in the air gap modulates much easier than the field in the steel even. Therefore, the tighter you can make the gap, the better you're going to be. The flux level in the air gap is higher, and there is less air gap period. Filling the space between the multiple gaps with copper helps, but it doesn't remove the steel "core" from the VC.

Regarding the transition from back to forward, a woofer is a constant acceleration device. It doesn't just stop and then change direction and start again. There is no "slow" transition from forward to rearward stroke as you mention. Again, speed is directly related to the frequency being played. If the motion was slowed down in any way, it would no longer be playing the same frequency, it would be playing a lower frequency. There are mechanical issues where say a cone could flex due to box pressure as it goes from one direction to another, but that is again another mechanical issue to look at and not part of the motor design.

Regarding the Lambda motor, the concept alone is fairly simple. Roger Russel(of McIntosh) and Scan Speak both own patents on shorting rings. Their methods have different benefits and the full copper sleeve has the benefits of both and then some. The trick is to get the coil to work like an air core instead of an iron core. The full copper sleeve shorts any eddy currents caused by the coil's motion anywhere over it's usable excursion. This means your field doesn't move no matte how far the woofer is being driven and non-linear distortion is greatly reduced. The core stays the same throughout any range of travel, meaning inductance also stays the same. Many drivers without a proper pole extension have coils that go from being nearly air core on the outward stroke to iron core on the inward stroke. This is huge in terms of non-linear distortion.

The other thing that makes the Lambda motor special is the tolerances to which they are built. Everything is assembled to within .003" tolerances. That is about the thickness of the human hair and I am not aware of anyone else who manufactures drivers to these tolerances. The gap needs to be extremely tight for the copper sleeve on the pole to fully be able to wick heat from the coil and into the pole. The steel pole alone can absorb a lot of heat, but steel doesn't absorb heat very fast and the copper does. The phase plug then acts as a large heat sink to pull heat from the pole and into the air at the front of the woofer. Without the tight tolerances and the full copper sleeve, you don't get this heat sinking benefit.

Jeff Bagby has recently used one of the Lambda drivers in a speaker for Salk Sound. For those not familiar with him, he's been around the industry for awhile and has written a few different programs for speaker modeling:

http://audio.claub.net/software/jbagby.html

You can see his comments in the following thread regarding the driver and it's low non-linear distortion: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=29988&page=2&pp=43

I'd put up one of the Lambda drivers against any other driver available in terms of low distortion and low power compression in any third party test at any time.

John

 
what do all the ohms mean? I know its resistance, but is 1 ohm better than 4, better than 8?
The only standpoints where you could make a claim for one being better than the other are in terms of amp damping factor and heat. As the impedance is lowered, the damping factor of the amp is also lowered. In most amps the damping factor is well high enough that it doesn't make a difference, but higher impedance would technically be better.

In terms of heat, the lower impedance means more current to get the same power level. So you could argue that higher impedance is actually better as the current is lowered. For the same reason we use high voltage power lines to distribute power over long distances. As voltage goes up, current goes way down to get the same deliverable power, but with less heat in the wire and smaller wire diameter requirements.

John

 
BL linearization is a good thing. I'm not at all trying to downplay the Stereo Integrity woofers nor was I trying to debate against someone buying them. Nick is a good guy.
There is however no perfect motor, and there are unfortunately by products that are not good in the way BL linearization is often done. An underhung driver is going to have the most linear BL of any driver over it's operating range until the coil begins to exit the gap. The problem is that you have a small coil so power handling is decreased and power compression goes up. It's a tradeoff. You're also distributing flux over a large gap plate, meaning you are nowhere near saturation. The farther from saturation your field is, the more you can modulate the flux field as the coil moves. This means more distortion unless a proper shorting ring is used to eliminate this effect at all points throughout the travel, not just at rest. A copper cap on top of the pole doesn't do a whole lot as the coil is inward and not adjacent to it.

This goes for any driver where flux is distributed over multiple gaps as well as the underhung. You get benefit from having the same core inside and around the outside of the coil which linearizes inductance, but inductance is still high as the core on both sides is steel. You get the benefit of lower distortion due to flatter BL. But at the same time you can't keep the flux from moving without using a shorting ring and you have a shorter coil so less power handling. In a multiple gap design you also have air space between the gaps. This air space has much less flux density than even the steel has. As a result the field in the air gap modulates much easier than the field in the steel even. Therefore, the tighter you can make the gap, the better you're going to be. The flux level in the air gap is higher, and there is less air gap period. Filling the space between the multiple gaps with copper helps, but it doesn't remove the steel "core" from the VC.

Regarding the transition from back to forward, a woofer is a constant acceleration device. It doesn't just stop and then change direction and start again. There is no "slow" transition from forward to rearward stroke as you mention. Again, speed is directly related to the frequency being played. If the motion was slowed down in any way, it would no longer be playing the same frequency, it would be playing a lower frequency. There are mechanical issues where say a cone could flex due to box pressure as it goes from one direction to another, but that is again another mechanical issue to look at and not part of the motor design.

Regarding the Lambda motor, the concept alone is fairly simple. Roger Russel(of McIntosh) and Scan Speak both own patents on shorting rings. Their methods have different benefits and the full copper sleeve has the benefits of both and then some. The trick is to get the coil to work like an air core instead of an iron core. The full copper sleeve shorts any eddy currents caused by the coil's motion anywhere over it's usable excursion. This means your field doesn't move no matte how far the woofer is being driven and non-linear distortion is greatly reduced. The core stays the same throughout any range of travel, meaning inductance also stays the same. Many drivers without a proper pole extension have coils that go from being nearly air core on the outward stroke to iron core on the inward stroke. This is huge in terms of non-linear distortion.

The other thing that makes the Lambda motor special is the tolerances to which they are built. Everything is assembled to within .003" tolerances. That is about the thickness of the human hair and I am not aware of anyone else who manufactures drivers to these tolerances. The gap needs to be extremely tight for the copper sleeve on the pole to fully be able to wick heat from the coil and into the pole. The steel pole alone can absorb a lot of heat, but steel doesn't absorb heat very fast and the copper does. The phase plug then acts as a large heat sink to pull heat from the pole and into the air at the front of the woofer. Without the tight tolerances and the full copper sleeve, you don't get this heat sinking benefit.

Jeff Bagby has recently used one of the Lambda drivers in a speaker for Salk Sound. For those not familiar with him, he's been around the industry for awhile and has written a few different programs for speaker modeling:

http://audio.claub.net/software/jbagby.html

You can see his comments in the following thread regarding the driver and it's low non-linear distortion: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=29988&page=2&pp=43

I'd put up one of the Lambda drivers against any other driver available in terms of low distortion and low power compression in any third party test at any time.

John
All true, I guess with the speed issue as I stated it would be more of an effect of severely reduced BL. If the field strength isn't strong enough to overcome the forces of the suspension then the cone slows down before the signal tells it to return. I do know the new Mag has a fully copper anodized pole piece and I believe the rebate in the top plate for the XBL^2 design is also filled with copper. As for inductors and induction, I am studying to be an EE so I do know a bit about that as well as electromagnetics //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif As for the eddy currents, you will still get them in the copper, it is impossible to not get them as long as there is a metal and a moving magnetic field eddy currents will be produced. As for power compression, if you still use a good coil and are aware of its limits then it's not a particularly large factor. Also, if the sensitivity id high enough it will be able to get loud enough before full power handling is reached anyway. I mean, with the combination of sensitivity and power handling, who cares if a driver only handles 1000 watts thermally if it only needs 500 to get to full output anyway, you will never reach power compression and will still have all of the output you need.

Your drivers definitely look to be high quality, but I could never buy anything from a company from Green Bay //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Go Lions! lol

 
Linear inductance is not the same as low inductance //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
"Best" is a bit subjective. There's trade-offs being made with every design decision or implementation.......
I was assuming a low inductance design with that comment, should have made that clear, I didn't, that's my fault. And it is true, there is no perfect design, XBL^2 increases BL linearity but decreases power handling. LMT/LMS raises power handling but increases moving mass due to the large coil, lowers BL due to the wider gap and somewhat increases inductance. Underhung decreses powerhandling and overhung increases inductance. There is no perfect design, but as long as you implement one of those strategies while paying attention to the negatives and taking some methods to offset them, you will be getting a better driver as John has done as well as Nick.

 
Well it looks like I missed page 5! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I don't think John was saying anything about XBL^2 and it not improving transient response because he is referencing his own work which shows how his use of shorting rings lowers and helps linearize inductance also.

Unless I totally missed something (this is the internet and things can be misconstrued), the air gap that's created by using XBL^2 has other things that go along with it. It's like placing a rock in the middle of a stream of water. Does the water stop? Nope. It gets diverted. Same goes with XBL^2. If the gap isn't completely saturated to begin with, putting a rebate in the top plate and pole piece diverts flux - it doesn't reduce the flux. If the gap was already saturated you couldn't force more flux through the new, smaller, dual gaps. But if it's not completely saturated, the flux gets diverted. Also, the gaps used in XBL^2 are actually quite tight.

As Richard mentioned, we use a "sleeve" too. Ours is an anodized pole piece instead of a conventional sleeve. The shorting ring we use is just to help, not to solve.

 
All true, I guess with the speed issue as I stated it would be more of an effect of severely reduced BL. If the field strength isn't strong enough to overcome the forces of the suspension then the cone slows down before the signal tells it to return. I do know the new Mag has a fully copper anodized pole piece and I believe the rebate in the top plate for the XBL^2 design is also filled with copper. As for inductors and induction, I am studying to be an EE so I do know a bit about that as well as electromagnetics //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif As for the eddy currents, you will still get them in the copper, it is impossible to not get them as long as there is a metal and a moving magnetic field eddy currents will be produced. As for power compression, if you still use a good coil and are aware of its limits then it's not a particularly large factor. Also, if the sensitivity id high enough it will be able to get loud enough before full power handling is reached anyway. I mean, with the combination of sensitivity and power handling, who cares if a driver only handles 1000 watts thermally if it only needs 500 to get to full output anyway, you will never reach power compression and will still have all of the output you need.

Your drivers definitely look to be high quality, but I could never buy anything from a company from Green Bay //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Go Lions! lol
With the full copper sleeve around the pole, any eddy currents are instantly shorted out before they have a chance to do anything. This only works if you have a rigidly affixed highly conductive material on the pole. Copper, aluminum, or other materials can all work. The thickness required is determined by how conductive the material is. Alum needs to be about 2x as thick as copper to get the same effect. The thicker the material, the lower in frequency it has effect. We've found that .025" thickness all around the pole is about ideal. Thicker will be more effective, but you are also widening the gap between the top plate and pole then and reducing flux. Again it's a tradeoff. The more conductive the material the better. The other option is if you make the entire pole less conductive. Powdered iron is cool as it is magnetically permeable but not electrically conductive. You essentially kill the inductance and the coil looks purely like an air core. The problem is that it is not as highly magnetically permeable as low carbon steel. You lose about 20% of the flux in the gap. And it isn't that cheap either.

As far as power compression goes, you'd be quite surprised. On a 2.5" coil driver with no copper, our high temp coil on black anodized alum former, we ran it at 300W for a period of 1 hour. This was a sealed box power test 20Hz-200Hz filtered pink noise, 6dB crest factor per some AES Standard I can't remember the number of right now. Anyway, the coil resistance went from 3.2ohm up to over 7ohm after that period of time with only 300W. This is equivalent to over 4dB in power compression. And this was a driver that had good physical cooling built in. You'd be surprised how much power compression becomes a factor. Measure the DCR of a driver, then play it at somewhat high levels for an hour and measure again before letting it cool. The pro audio companies spec power compression usually at -10, -3, and 0dB(full power). Look at even some of the large 4" coil pro audio drivers and even then you'll see compression of 3dB or more at 500W or less often times.

I remember all the packers/lions rivalry from when I was up at tech. It seemed to be split about 50/50. Of course I was up there from 95-99. The packers had 3 good season in there... did the lions even win a game those years? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif It's funny though because I was a John Elway fan since the mid 80's. I had my Elway jersey on amidst a sea of Packer jerseys when the broncos beat the packers in the superbowl.

John

 
Im looking to buy a new sub+amp. I need the sub to have very good clarity, ie being able to hit all the frequencies its suppose to. not looking fro it to be loud, but than again all subs will be loud. I just dont want to hear it sound like crap at higher volumes. my budget is 800-1000 for the sub and the amp, but paying less will obviously be better. Any ideas? Thanks
BTW looking for one 12" sub, but if 2 is *that* much better than I guess I could get 2, but want to stay with 12 if possible.
L7 //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

EDIT::: just kidding

 
With the full copper sleeve around the pole, any eddy currents are instantly shorted out before they have a chance to do anything. This only works if you have a rigidly affixed highly conductive material on the pole. Copper, aluminum, or other materials can all work. The thickness required is determined by how conductive the material is. Alum needs to be about 2x as thick as copper to get the same effect. The thicker the material, the lower in frequency it has effect. We've found that .025" thickness all around the pole is about ideal. Thicker will be more effective, but you are also widening the gap between the top plate and pole then and reducing flux. Again it's a tradeoff. The more conductive the material the better. The other option is if you make the entire pole less conductive. Powdered iron is cool as it is magnetically permeable but not electrically conductive. You essentially kill the inductance and the coil looks purely like an air core. The problem is that it is not as highly magnetically permeable as low carbon steel. You lose about 20% of the flux in the gap. And it isn't that cheap either.
As far as power compression goes, you'd be quite surprised. On a 2.5" coil driver with no copper, our high temp coil on black anodized alum former, we ran it at 300W for a period of 1 hour. This was a sealed box power test 20Hz-200Hz filtered pink noise, 6dB crest factor per some AES Standard I can't remember the number of right now. Anyway, the coil resistance went from 3.2ohm up to over 7ohm after that period of time with only 300W. This is equivalent to over 4dB in power compression. And this was a driver that had good physical cooling built in. You'd be surprised how much power compression becomes a factor. Measure the DCR of a driver, then play it at somewhat high levels for an hour and measure again before letting it cool. The pro audio companies spec power compression usually at -10, -3, and 0dB(full power). Look at even some of the large 4" coil pro audio drivers and even then you'll see compression of 3dB or more at 500W or less often times.

I remember all the packers/lions rivalry from when I was up at tech. It seemed to be split about 50/50. Of course I was up there from 95-99. The packers had 3 good season in there... did the lions even win a game those years? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif It's funny though because I was a John Elway fan since the mid 80's. I had my Elway jersey on amidst a sea of Packer jerseys when the broncos beat the packers in the superbowl.

John

We should start manufacturing top plates and T-Yolks out of Supermalloy or sheet steel for maximum flux //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
We should start manufacturing top plates and T-Yolks out of Supermalloy or sheet steel for maximum flux //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
I had a customer run me through a bunch of hoops because low carbon steel wasn't "good enough" for what he wanted to do. He wanted something better. Material wise there are some Iron/Cobalt alloys like the Carpenter Hiperco50 and Hiperco27 that on paper look good. The 50 isn't machinable, and the 27 is ridiculously expensive. I looked into doing just the poles out of it. For 2" diameter bar stock it's around $213 per INCH! Crazy stuff.

Speaking of crazy materials... on the DIYaudio forum there was a debate about VC wire that is somewhat interesting. People claimed that none of the VC wires used today are idea as they all have rising resistance with heat. Apparently nobody should buy another woofer from anyone until development is done on a new imaginary, ideal, perfect VC material that doesn't have resistive rise with heat. haha

John

 
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