Are 8's the new 12's?

[Chevyaudio 5,000+ posts]

DD really makes a great product, overlybuilt also

Im not questioning DDs products. They are nice for what they are. They do tend to be on the overpriced side of things. and Their CS has been lackluster in years past.

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

You are a DD fanboiAnything that DD makes will sound better, play lower and take more power

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Seems like it. I highly doubt two 3510's can cause breathing difficulty over as wide a frequincy range as my Mag 15's. And I know that they wont sound as good or play as low.

DD makes their woofers for one note wonders. Nothing wrong with that but I've yet to hear a DD set up with tonal quality...in fact I've yet to see thoes words togather from anyone except DD fans.

As far as the Fs argument. I think some people dont know EXACTLY what Fs is. A lot more has to do with how low a sub can play with acceptable output.

Baring all other things equal (that is only possible in theory) larger cone size will lower Fs because of additional Mms but between an 8 and a 12, in theory, responce curve will be the same but the 8" will be a few dB quiter for the entire band.

But all other things can not be equal so why dont we just agree that Fs is a factor, but not a determineing factor. One could have a driver that has an uber low Fs but doesnt have the displaceemnt capeability to reach low. One could also make a driver that has a crap ton of displacement capeability and a 50Hz Fs that would still be able to drop. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

BTW. Bass Race > Street Beat.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Let's look at this from an subjective perspective.... a real person listening to music, not a meter.
Current model RE line from Resonant Engineering:

8" Fs is 22.8 hz

10" Fs is 21.5 hz

12" Fs is 20 hz

Given the same design type and such to give equal opportunity, do you REALLY think the user will hear the 1-2 hz difference in low end? Also consider that the Fs on all of them are under 23 hz, which very VERY few musical recordings play at all. So, in all reality, any sizes ability to play below 30 hz is essentially pointless as it wont be used.

Explain to me how F3 of a box has a direct relation to its cone size. Don't tell me it is, explain WHY.

Explain to me how F3 of a box has a direct relation to a subs Fs. Again, don't tell me it is, explain WHY. You can have the same sub in 2 different volumes tuned the same and the F3 will be different.

You say a bigger cone size lowers the Fs, but why is that? It's not because the cone got bigger, its the added moving mass. You could counter-act that by adding even more mass in the form of a spider (or even simply changing the spider) and make the Fs go UP. So, you could very easily make a 15 have a higher Fs than a 10 in the same line, with the same coil and motor. Plain and simple, the Fs has to do with the suspension. The same EVERYTHING except spiders could give you a 10 hz Fs or a 50 hz Fs.

Sure we could pick a sub line like the RE, at one end of the spectrum where Fs varies very little. Or we could pick a line at the other end of the spectrum, like the L5 series:

L5 8" Fs: 43.4

L5 10" Fs: 34.9

L5 12" Fs: 32.2

L5 15" Fs: 23.4

So a difference of 20hz from the 8 to the 15. That is most certainly a noticeable/audible amount. But that is beside the point, I didn't come here to debate the audibility of Fs differences, or the reasons why cone size changes Fs (where did I dispute any of that in this thread? I didnt)... I came here to dispute the comment that cone size has 'nothing to do with how low it goes'. Look at those Fs specs for the L5 and then tell me you back up that statement. If you do, well Im not sure we are gonna come to a meeting of the minds here. If you do not agree with that statement, what exactly are you debating here?

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Sure we could pick a sub line like the RE, at one end of the spectrum where Fs varies very little. Or we could pick a line at the other end of the spectrum, like the L5 series:
L5 8" Fs: 43.4

L5 10" Fs: 34.9

L5 12" Fs: 32.2

L5 15" Fs: 23.4

So a difference of 20hz from the 8 to the 15. That is most certainly a noticeable/audible amount. But that is beside the point, I didn't come here to debate the audibility of Fs differences, or the reasons why cone size changes Fs (where did I dispute any of that in this thread? I didnt)... I came here to dispute the comment that cone size has 'nothing to do with how low it goes'. Look at those Fs specs for the L5 and then tell me you back up that statement. If you do, well Im not sure we are gonna come to a meeting of the minds here. If you do not agree with that statement, what exactly are you debating here?

Displacement capeability alone will allow the 15" to play low louder.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

But all other things can not be equal so why dont we just agree that Fs is a factor, but not a determineing factor. One could have a driver that has an uber low Fs but doesnt have the displaceemnt capeability to reach low. One could also make a driver that has a crap ton of displacement capeability and a 50Hz Fs that would still be able to drop. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Agreed. Fs is not the sole determining factor (by far), but it is a factor. I dont see why that statement has caused so much commotion in this thread. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Displacement capeability alone will allow the 15" to play low louder.

Which is a function of.... cone size. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Which is a function of.... cone size. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Exactly.

I could also tape weights to the 8" and get the same Fs as the 15" but not be able to play any lower and, in fact, lower efficency in the whole audio spectrum.

 

[80INCHES 5,000+ posts]

um heres my theory...and if anyone feels that i'm wrong..i will value your opinionbut i feel any sub can hit the lows....its all box dependent...so if a sub that has a high fs(35hz and higher) will need a bigger box to play the lows pretty well

but a sub that has a low fs will not need a box as big to hit the lows decently

but at the same time qts and vas. has a part to play in this as well

so u really can base a sub on fs alone theres other varibles that play apart in this equation

um i would like to get an opinion as to wat i said....does my post make some kind of sense?

80

 

[supa_c 5,000+ posts]

you know nothing 80

thats my oppinion, its totally wrong but its my oppinion //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 

[80INCHES 5,000+ posts]

you know nothing 80
thats my oppinion, its totally wrong but its my oppinion //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

i totally respect your opinion...i dont want to know a whole lot cuz it will overload my brain

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/naughty.gif.94359f346c0f1259df8038d60b41863e.gif

80

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

um i would like to get an opinion as to wat i said....does my post make some kind of sense?
80

Bigger is always better for low and loud. Iron Law.

Box size and type are driver dependant. A sub wit ha few mm Xmax with Bl that quickly drops off outside of the gap wont be able to get loud and low unless it has MASSIVE cone area, even in a large ported box tuned insanely low.

If the box is sealed, total displacement capeability (XMag * Sd) will be the limiting factor, if the box is ported/Bandpass/Horn most subs with decent displacement capeability will be able to get decently low in the correct enclosure.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Exactly.
I could also tape weights to the 8" and get the same Fs as the 15" but not be able to play any lower and, in fact, lower efficency in the whole audio spectrum.

Sure, we could also cut holes in the 15" sub's cone until it has the same radiating surface as the 8"... so what? All Ive said all along is as cone size increases (for a given sub), Fs lowers. F3 of the enclosure is proportional to the Fs, so size does factor in. Adding weights to the subs to artificially change their Mms really doesn't change my point.

 

[80INCHES 5,000+ posts]

Bigger is always better for low and loud. Iron Law.
Box size and type are driver dependant. A sub wit ha few mm Xmax with Bl that quickly drops off outside of the gap wont be able to get loud and low unless it has MASSIVE cone area, even in a large ported box tuned insanely low.

If the box is sealed, total displacement capeability (XMag * Sd) will be the limiting factor, if the box is ported/Bandpass/Horn most subs with decent displacement capeability will be able to get decently low in the correct enclosure.

so i was making sense....yay for me

80

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Sure, we could also cut holes in the 15" sub's cone until it has the same radiating surface as the 8"... so what? All Ive said all along is as cone size increases (for a given sub), Fs lowers. F3 of the enclosure is proportional to the Fs, so size does factor in. Adding weights to the subs to artificially change their Mms really doesn't change my point.

I wasnt argueing with you. Chill out and realize that.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif Some companies do add mass to the cone to change parameters.