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Haunz
denim 5,000+ posts
SSAudio.com
Last I checked, Orion never used XBL2. Also, motor topology has very little to do with "pounding as hard as their over hung counter parts". This poll is pointless, as it makes no sense. Anyone who votes in it is wasting their time.
Orion H2s use a dual-gap technology... been a while since I read about motor techs but IIRC its similar to XBL^2.
To me XBL2 subs have a smooth, almost dry, sound and blend really well. When playing louder and louder they retain their sound without getting boomy or sloppy sounding. They don't sound as punchy to me on drums but have real authority down low. In terms of street beating, I think they can get loud in the right box.
To me XBL2 subs have a smooth, almost dry, sound and blend really well. When playing louder and louder they retain their sound without getting boomy or sloppy sounding. They don't sound as punchy to me on drums but have real authority down low. In terms of street beating, I think they can get loud in the right box.
orion never made a xbl underhung motor that i have seen..
I'll answer this question the best I can as I understand what your trying to ask. First off, I don't think the Orion uses XBL^2, but for the sake of understanding/arguement since XBL^2 designs do use small coils, I'll answer anyway lol.
First thing to realize the major benefit of XBL^2 is what is usually referred to as a flat or linear BL curve. BL is a measurement of motor force. It's generally measureed in tesla meters, but can also be measured in newtons/ampere. Newtons is a measurement of force and amphere is a measurment of current through the wire. Basically, the more BL product you have, the more acceleration you'll get on the cone for the same current flowing through the coil. A non optimized sub has this value drop as excursion increases and the coil leaves the gap. As it's get's further away you get less push since your further away from the center of the field. This means your effeciency drops since lower BL means you'll need more power to make up for the lack of motor force at that new distance away from the center of the gap. An XBL^2 design doesn't have that weakness. A good design like the new Tempest X has almost a perfectly flat BL curve to over 20mm. Most woofers (even expensive underground ones on here) realistically begin to lose motor force from 10mm onward. Another advantage to XBL^2 over an overhung is that since you can use a smaller assembly due to the shorter coil, you can often use a smaller gap and have less coil rub. Air is a bad conducter of heat so a tighter gap without worrying about coil rub means you can get the coil very close to the motor where the heat can actually get into another piece of steel. The Acoustic Elegance woofers (non XBL^2, but a good example of a tight gap) use a very tight gap and can actually rate their woofers conseratively at 1000 watts RMS, even with just a 2.5" coil. Just something else to think about.
Anyway, the dropping of the BL as the coil moves means those drivers generally need more power than the non XBL^2 version. Since they become less effecient as they move, you need to keep dumping power onto the coil to increase excursion. A XBL^2 woofer that is properly built won't do that. It'll be as effecient at 1mm of excursion going to 2 as it is from 10 going to 20. Because of this you need less coil since it will need less power to reach it's mechanical limits. Ultimately that is what makes a speaker loud. How much BL you can fit under a curve, not how much power it takes to get you there. It's just like a dyno for a car, power under the curve is what counts. That's why SPL designers shoot for as much BL/RE as they can get, higher BL values mean more acceleration so greater SPL's as they displace more air near tuning.
Also, since someone else mentioned the characteristics of an XBL^2 driver, I'll relate those in as well. The smooth almost dry sound is lack of distortion. Any BL variance with stroke will show up as non linear distortion, this is common in loudspeakers so it sounds strange when it's not there to some. The lack of boomy sound as the volume increases that most subs have is also due to a flat BL curve. If you look at how the T/S parameters are derived, if BL decreases the speakers QTS (electrical Q value) will increase. This increase in electrical Q increases the overall Q of the system. This is what changes when you put a speaker into a smaller box vs a bigger one, smaller boxes have higher q's, bigger boxes have lower. So as the BL drops on a regular speaker, the overall Q goes up and you lose some of your low end bass. A XBL^2 won't do that, it sounds the same as volume increases, it just gets louder.
Anyway the issue most older XBL^2 designs had playing up high was due to inductance and inductance variation over stroke. Modern designs that use faraday rings like the tempest X or even the SSA Xcon shouldn't have that problem. Actually, since the coil on an XBL design is smaller, inductance should be lower. The XXX's were notorious for this problem as they used a fairly big coil and didnt' design the motor well in that regard, the brahmas were usually characterized as a bit punchier, they had less inductance I'd assume.
Lastly, the thing to remember when using an XBL^2 design for a "street beater" is this. They will always be thermally limited. As I said earlier, they are effecient so they can reach XMAX fairly easily and give you lots of clean output for lower power overall. However, an XBL^2 design's BL beyond xmax, drops VERY fast. This limits the excursion you can get beyond it's clean limits. In the real world this means you'll notice that if you turn the volume up you'l find it gains SPL pretty linearly and cleanly. At some point, possibly sooner than your used to do the effeciency, it simply stops getting louder, all at once. This means you've reached the clean mechanical limits. If you keep adding power, yeah, it will heat up the coils, however, since BL is dropping at a very fast rate, that's alot of power that isn't doing much to move the cone, there is very little force being given to it for all that extra power. Because the cone isn't moving beyond xmax easily, you'll also notice it doesn't sound bad or strained. The woofer basically refuses to go much past XMAX so if you get stupid and just crank the gains you'll just blow it with no warning signs as unlike most subs, it won't bottom itself out or sound like dog poo with the Q dropping cutting off your low end. In short, once you notice it stops getting louder, dont' push it expecting anything else, it's not there your just risking damaging it.
First thing to realize the major benefit of XBL^2 is what is usually referred to as a flat or linear BL curve. BL is a measurement of motor force. It's generally measureed in tesla meters, but can also be measured in newtons/ampere. Newtons is a measurement of force and amphere is a measurment of current through the wire. Basically, the more BL product you have, the more acceleration you'll get on the cone for the same current flowing through the coil. A non optimized sub has this value drop as excursion increases and the coil leaves the gap. As it's get's further away you get less push since your further away from the center of the field. This means your effeciency drops since lower BL means you'll need more power to make up for the lack of motor force at that new distance away from the center of the gap. An XBL^2 design doesn't have that weakness. A good design like the new Tempest X has almost a perfectly flat BL curve to over 20mm. Most woofers (even expensive underground ones on here) realistically begin to lose motor force from 10mm onward. Another advantage to XBL^2 over an overhung is that since you can use a smaller assembly due to the shorter coil, you can often use a smaller gap and have less coil rub. Air is a bad conducter of heat so a tighter gap without worrying about coil rub means you can get the coil very close to the motor where the heat can actually get into another piece of steel. The Acoustic Elegance woofers (non XBL^2, but a good example of a tight gap) use a very tight gap and can actually rate their woofers conseratively at 1000 watts RMS, even with just a 2.5" coil. Just something else to think about.
Anyway, the dropping of the BL as the coil moves means those drivers generally need more power than the non XBL^2 version. Since they become less effecient as they move, you need to keep dumping power onto the coil to increase excursion. A XBL^2 woofer that is properly built won't do that. It'll be as effecient at 1mm of excursion going to 2 as it is from 10 going to 20. Because of this you need less coil since it will need less power to reach it's mechanical limits. Ultimately that is what makes a speaker loud. How much BL you can fit under a curve, not how much power it takes to get you there. It's just like a dyno for a car, power under the curve is what counts. That's why SPL designers shoot for as much BL/RE as they can get, higher BL values mean more acceleration so greater SPL's as they displace more air near tuning.
Also, since someone else mentioned the characteristics of an XBL^2 driver, I'll relate those in as well. The smooth almost dry sound is lack of distortion. Any BL variance with stroke will show up as non linear distortion, this is common in loudspeakers so it sounds strange when it's not there to some. The lack of boomy sound as the volume increases that most subs have is also due to a flat BL curve. If you look at how the T/S parameters are derived, if BL decreases the speakers QTS (electrical Q value) will increase. This increase in electrical Q increases the overall Q of the system. This is what changes when you put a speaker into a smaller box vs a bigger one, smaller boxes have higher q's, bigger boxes have lower. So as the BL drops on a regular speaker, the overall Q goes up and you lose some of your low end bass. A XBL^2 won't do that, it sounds the same as volume increases, it just gets louder.
Anyway the issue most older XBL^2 designs had playing up high was due to inductance and inductance variation over stroke. Modern designs that use faraday rings like the tempest X or even the SSA Xcon shouldn't have that problem. Actually, since the coil on an XBL design is smaller, inductance should be lower. The XXX's were notorious for this problem as they used a fairly big coil and didnt' design the motor well in that regard, the brahmas were usually characterized as a bit punchier, they had less inductance I'd assume.
Lastly, the thing to remember when using an XBL^2 design for a "street beater" is this. They will always be thermally limited. As I said earlier, they are effecient so they can reach XMAX fairly easily and give you lots of clean output for lower power overall. However, an XBL^2 design's BL beyond xmax, drops VERY fast. This limits the excursion you can get beyond it's clean limits. In the real world this means you'll notice that if you turn the volume up you'l find it gains SPL pretty linearly and cleanly. At some point, possibly sooner than your used to do the effeciency, it simply stops getting louder, all at once. This means you've reached the clean mechanical limits. If you keep adding power, yeah, it will heat up the coils, however, since BL is dropping at a very fast rate, that's alot of power that isn't doing much to move the cone, there is very little force being given to it for all that extra power. Because the cone isn't moving beyond xmax easily, you'll also notice it doesn't sound bad or strained. The woofer basically refuses to go much past XMAX so if you get stupid and just crank the gains you'll just blow it with no warning signs as unlike most subs, it won't bottom itself out or sound like dog poo with the Q dropping cutting off your low end. In short, once you notice it stops getting louder, dont' push it expecting anything else, it's not there your just risking damaging it.
OP
Haunz 10+ year member
Packing 4/0
- Thread Starter
- #6
^ a very comprehensive post T3mpest.
This.
Who pissed in your cheerios ? This was ment to be a subjective thread, not really serious. As posted dual gap is basically the same thing, but maybe I should have specified. I could also get a couple brahmas to use and had been eyeing up the CCS SDX15s if it matters to you.
XBL^2 and the iteration in the H2 share something in common: they're both dual-gap, single-coil designs.
The difference is that the space between the gaps in an XBL^2 motor is achieved by machining a gap into a single continuous top plate, whereas the dual-gap approach patented by STEP technologies uses a top plate-magnet-top plate sandwich to achieve the second gap.
The property in question (coil size) will be about the same whether it's the XBL^2 approach or the STEP dual-gap approach. Yes, both motors use a significantly smaller coil per mm Xmax.
The question was: do XBL^2 drivers pound as hard as their overhung counterparts? My response would be that it likely depends over what frequency range we're talking. A small coil with a lot of excursion can be very beneficial when you're wanting most of your output at the lower end of the spectrum (as a larger coil will add more mass, making the driver less efficient). Still, it is certainly true that the ability of a driver to handle power is largely a product of the coil geometry, in which case surface area is actually preferable to height; true, you can put quite a bit more power in with a well-designed convection system in the motor, but the hard limits are almost always going to be set by the coil.
The difference is that the space between the gaps in an XBL^2 motor is achieved by machining a gap into a single continuous top plate, whereas the dual-gap approach patented by STEP technologies uses a top plate-magnet-top plate sandwich to achieve the second gap.
The property in question (coil size) will be about the same whether it's the XBL^2 approach or the STEP dual-gap approach. Yes, both motors use a significantly smaller coil per mm Xmax.
The question was: do XBL^2 drivers pound as hard as their overhung counterparts? My response would be that it likely depends over what frequency range we're talking. A small coil with a lot of excursion can be very beneficial when you're wanting most of your output at the lower end of the spectrum (as a larger coil will add more mass, making the driver less efficient). Still, it is certainly true that the ability of a driver to handle power is largely a product of the coil geometry, in which case surface area is actually preferable to height; true, you can put quite a bit more power in with a well-designed convection system in the motor, but the hard limits are almost always going to be set by the coil.
supermaxx123 10+ year member
CarAudio.com Elite
the technology wasn't developed to pound hard, but for overall clarity as already stated.
audioholic 5,000+ posts
not a moderator
What does that mean? The technology was developed to achieve improved SQ in increasingly larger excursion capable motors.
"Also, since someone else mentioned the characteristics of an XBL^2 driver, I'll relate those in as well. The smooth almost dry sound is lack of distortion. Any BL variance with stroke will show up as non linear distortion, this is common in loudspeakers so it sounds strange when it's not there to some. The lack of boomy sound as the volume increases that most subs have is also due to a flat BL curve. If you look at how the T/S parameters are derived, if BL decreases the speakers QTS (electrical Q value) will increase. This increase in electrical Q increases the overall Q of the system. This is what changes when you put a speaker into a smaller box vs a bigger one, smaller boxes have higher q's, bigger boxes have lower. So as the BL drops on a regular speaker, the overall Q goes up and you lose some of your low end bass. A XBL^2 won't do that, it sounds the same as volume increases, it just gets louder."
Nice effort, T3mpest. You're very sharp. What I enjoyed most about your post is the way you described the lack of distortion with linear BL motors and how people react to it subjectively. It can be hard to put into words for some folks but you did a nice job. It's pretty eerie when you hear a system with nearly non-existent distortion for the first time and some never grow to enjoy it. I absolutely love it when my LMS drivers just keep going lower in frequency and remain perfectly composed.
Nice effort, T3mpest. You're very sharp. What I enjoyed most about your post is the way you described the lack of distortion with linear BL motors and how people react to it subjectively. It can be hard to put into words for some folks but you did a nice job. It's pretty eerie when you hear a system with nearly non-existent distortion for the first time and some never grow to enjoy it. I absolutely love it when my LMS drivers just keep going lower in frequency and remain perfectly composed.
audioholic 5,000+ posts
not a moderator
In today's world most people are use to hearing music from speakers with traditional BL curves. How many of us have heard our fav music 100% acoustically? Even at live concerts speakers play the dominant role in what we hear. An electric guitar can only be heard (for all intents and purposes) via the use of speakers. So when people hear speakers with this relatively new technology that have no audible BL distortion and have the characteristics t3mpest described earlier, many people think the music is lacking something that should be there. Familiarity overriding reality.
BL optimization is going to take a while to really make an impact because of this, but barring a whole new radical change in speaker technology, BL optimization is the way of the future for speakers.
Papermaker85 5,000+ posts
Banned
power compression is equally as important as any B/L curve.. im sorry but you cannot fix 1 part of the problem and claim to have fixed all of the problem..
audioholic 5,000+ posts
not a moderator
There are plenty of important factors besides the BL curve, Im not sure what your point is specifically.
I couldn't agree more and to add to that, it's not even always about a lack of distortion (whatever kind it may be, wherever it's coming from), sometimes it's how something distorts that makes it enjoyable. Tube amplifiers, giant horn loaded speakers, guitars, ribbon tweeters, etc... It can be quite an experience the first time you hear something without any of the usual "hash" involved.
audioholic 5,000+ posts
not a moderator
People generally find even-order harmonic distortion as pleasant sounding (tube 'warmth') and odd-order harmonic distortion unpleasant (clipped amplifier). There are exceptions however, rock guitarists are famous for intentionally clipping their amps to give the sound an 'edge' that is common in that genre of music. But for the most part, people fall into this generalization.
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