Why do you need the BIG 3 on stock electrical?

[-unknown-]

I'm done, I'm out, I'm not replying. I don't care what anybody thinks the bottom line is I'm right until somebody can prove me wrong. The fact is you can't, go to your local mechanics and argue with them.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

I'm done, I'm out, I'm not replying. I don't care what anybody thinks the bottom line is I'm right until somebody can prove me wrong. The fact is you can't, go to your local mechanics and argue with them.

Enjoy your vacation for the bullshit in a technical discussion area.

 

[Uncle Snake]

From the beginning it was like watching a poo circle the bowl on its way down.......

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

What an ignorant piece of sh*t that guy was.

 

[big scott]

that being a child for ya.

i have been working on car all my life.

i can do everything on a car.

i have studied all systems.

i rebiuld engines, tranys ect....

i know what im talking about and you do not have a case..

YOUR WRONG and have NO CLUE .

go back to playing with your barbie dolls and leave the car audio to the adults. little boy.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

that being a child for ya.
i have been working on car all my life.

i can do everything on a car.

i have studied all systems.

i rebiuld engines, tranys ect....

i know what im talking about and you do not have a case..

YOUR WRONG and have NO CLUE .

go back to playing with your barbie dolls and leave the car audio to the adults. little boy.

he's banned bro. Whitedragon has taken out the garbage.

 

[Roland 10+ year member]

Why was this guy Banned?

He had a Valid point about the wire from the Alternator not needing to any bigger than the capability of the alternator's output according to wire Charts. https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=chr-yo_gc&ei=utf-8&ilc=12&type=888596&p=wire+charts

Can't we disagree just disagree and leave it at that. I'd like to understand what he did to get banned.

 

[shizzzon 10+ year member]

Whether intentional or not, he was trolling unnecessarily.

He started a topic asking a question and regardless of what route anyone would take, he would degrade people's character and tell them they are wrong without rebutting with any valid information which indicated trolling.

Forum should be to help each other but the user does not have the maturity to professionally be a member of a forum.

That's pretty bad but is my honest opinion.

The sole purpose that we see now is to combat people to waste people's time without wanting to better the community in any form.

 

[Roland 10+ year member]

Whether intentional or not, he was trolling unnecessarily.
He started a topic asking a question and regardless of what route anyone would take, he would degrade people's character and tell them they are wrong without rebutting with any valid information which indicated trolling.

Forum should be to help each other but the user does not have the maturity to professionally be a member of a forum.

That's pretty bad but is my honest opinion.

The sole purpose that we see now is to combat people to waste people's time without wanting to better the community in any form.

Understood i see your point.

 

[tymoto21 10+ year member]

1) why would he imply he is Ase certified and has 40 years experience when he is 17

2) in for perma ban when he makes new account

 

[shizzzon 10+ year member]

I made mention of this earlier in this thread that it sounded like he was getting his information motivated by someone else who was the ASE mechanic since he loved to repeat it over and over..

The way he was talking made it sound like he was too young with random information sourcing in different directions which resulted in a concrete foundation of ridiculous false points.

Then he later said he was 17.. so i just started laughing until he was banned.

He's got this view that he found someone who knows more than him(which too bad we didnt get to him first) and he trusts..

So anyone who debates his source is wrong.

I literally despise close-minded people because they refuse to accept information.

That is what was happening here tonight. You are never too old to learn.. especially when you are not even an adult yet.

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

Well this turned into a crapper of a thread since I last looked at it. If anyone reads this in the future, wades through 7 pages, and wants science here's some quick and dirty physics for ya just to prove bigger wires = mo betta. In practice the entire situation is more complicated, but it's not difficult to show some advantages of bigger wire.

In DC the voltage drop will be roughly your current * your resistance. Assuming the same material a larger wire will have less congested "pathways" to carry the current. Even though the resistivity (the measure of a materials ability to impede the flow of electrons think of it as type of "friction" for electrons) of two wires of the same material will be the same, assuming constant temps the total resistance is inversely proportional to the the cross sectional area leading to less overall resistance. The underlying physics behind lower voltage drops is the surprising fact the current is carried by electrons which typically move on orders of millimeters per second (It depends heavily on current and cross section of wire, but it is substantially slower than one would think.) So smaller wires result in higher electron drift velocities which translates to more heat dissipation/resistance and subsequent voltage drop. Not to mention the added heat further increases resistance in a wire which can lead to melted wires somewhere in the system. In summary yes stock wires do handle the current from a stock alt, but at higher demand loads you sacrifice overall voltage which makes the rest your 12 volt system work harder and can lead to situations where equipment is not performing optimally or in some cases equipment can be damaged. Unless you have a modest system it's generally worth it to upgrade the Big 3 for a myriad of reasons some of which I only hinted at.

 

[Roland 10+ year member]

Well this turned into a crapper of a thread since I last looked at it. If anyone reads this in the future, wades through 7 pages, and wants science here's some quick and dirty physics for ya just to prove bigger wires = mo betta. In practice the entire situation is more complicated, but it's not difficult to show some advantages of bigger wire.
In DC the voltage drop will be roughly your current * your resistance. Assuming the same material a larger wire will have less congested "pathways" to carry the current. Even though the resistivity (the measure of a materials ability to impede the flow of electrons think of it as type of "friction" for electrons) of two wires of the same material will be the same, assuming constant temps the total resistance is inversely proportional to the the cross sectional area leading to less overall resistance. The underlying physics behind lower voltage drops is the surprising fact the current is carried by electrons which typically move on orders of millimeters per second (It depends heavily on current and cross section of wire, but it is substantially slower than one would think.) So smaller wires result in higher electron drift velocities which translates to more heat dissipation/resistance and subsequent voltage drop. Not to mention the added heat further increases resistance in a wire which can lead to melted wires somewhere in the system. In summary yes stock wires do handle the current from a stock alt, but at higher demand loads you sacrifice overall voltage which makes the rest your 12 volt system work harder and can lead to situations where equipment is not performing optimally or in some cases equipment can be damaged. Unless you have a modest system it's generally worth it to upgrade the Big 3 for a myriad of reasons some of which I only hinted at.

Not trolling but I think his point was, that you have diminished returns from SOME wire upgrades. Everyone knows and agrees that bigger is better that's a given. We would also agree that a 10guage wire going to our tweeters would be overkill because the small gain doesn't justify the effort and cost. (I know A/C not the same but but it's a example) All wire will have some voltage drop even super conductors have some resistance. So upgrading a alternator wire to go from 0.1 voltage drop to 0.02voltage drop may not be of value when you compare a weak ground that is causing a 3.0 volts drop. I have resolved a number of voltage drop issues by improving ground connections with cars that have had stock alternator wires.

That said an alternator wire upgrade is so cheap and easy that it is hardly worth debating and definitely not worth getting excited about.

 

[big scott]

he's banned bro. Whitedragon has taken out the garbage.

ya i know, but he is still reading this.... lol

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

Not trolling but I think his point was, that you have diminished returns from SOME wire upgrades. Everyone knows and agrees that bigger is better that's a given. We would also agree that a 10guage wire going to our tweeters would be overkill because the small gain doesn't justify the effort and cost. (I know A/C not the same but but it's a example) All wire will have some voltage drop even super conductors have some resistance. So upgrading a alternator wire to go from 0.1 voltage drop to 0.02voltage drop may not be of value when you compare a weak ground that is causing a 3.0 volts drop. I have resolved a number of voltage drop issues by improving ground connections with cars that have had stock alternator wires.
That said an alternator wire upgrade is so cheap and easy that it is hardly worth debating and definitely not worth getting excited about.

Yeah, the ground point is generally super weak with stock wiring. If you have 0 money it definitely is worth the effort to redo the stock ground (sand the contact point at least).....From what I read towards the end I thought he was saying there was no gain at all as long as your wire could handle the current from your alt. That's wrong. (It was late maybe I just didn't get his point.) Like I said if you have a modest system (for example

Does every install merit the big 3 especially for super thick wire? No. It's a blanket suggestion meant to mitigate some of the issues that many people in the hobby could have. I don't know what you're doing with the gain knob even after you read the horrors of hard clipping. You just want to squeeze out as much performance as possible and you notice the gain knob is a quick way to potentially make it louder at the expense of additional current. I don't know if your playing modded music that has a 24 hz tone throughout the entire song because it sounds good. I don't know if you will get the smart idea to drop your impedance to .5 ohms on an amp that may try its best to make it happen because you read about people dropping to .5 ohm all the time. I don't know if you picked up a Cactus Sounds PF600.1 (or some other cheater amp that intentionally undersells itself) at the fleamarket for $50 and figured it was close enough in power to your Fosgate p300.1 to just throw it in their setup because 600 isn't that much more than 300. Point is when you wire for car audio you're wiring for a dynamic number of variables not alternator output. In probably 99% of installs the alt is insufficient and that power will be drawn from the battery. Once that begins to happen on a regular basis the electrical balancing act becomes considerably less straightforward. If someone wanted to they could do research into their own habits/setup and figure out if stock wiring is enough, but in a hobby where people routinely have difficulty figuring out final impedance on their own, that someone would be a minority.

The big 3 is generally an easy suggestion, a good suggestion, and quite often a cheap suggestion which many people could benefit from.