What do you think of the xbl^2 motors?

[The Camry]

Ive had the privilege of getting some stereo integrity tm65s and they are by far the lowest distortion woofer I have ever heard.

I have done a direct listening comparison vs the Hv165l woofer and I can say this. The hv165l is more detailed in every way however it still has that added distortion that I just cant get away from.

The xbl2 doesnt have that crisp detail that the hv165l has but that could be due to very different FR extension.

Its kind of hard to explain. Its like, do you guys remember the first time you heard your system with an 80prs or a high end HU/dsp, after you had swapped out from a cheaper deck. That cleanness of the signal, that holy crap what have I been missing moment. That's what its like hearing the low distortion motor.

I highly recommend trying a driver with the xbl^2 motor

Click to read more...

 

[trust fund baby]

only ones I've heard were the xxx drivers and the Brahma drivers. I was wholly unimpressed

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

It's interesting... it's either a love or hate thing. People are VERY much accustomed to added distortion in their speakers. No matter how fancy a speaker is in terms of exotic materials, so on, and so forth... it will still sound objectively better if you reduce parameter shift over stroke -- but a large number of people will still prefer the higher distortion sound and claim it is "better."

I've been through the same thing after launching my new platform products... I've removed a huge factor in FS & QTS shift over stroke by using an extremely linear suspension so the sound is very different. Starting with the suspension is especially challenging since this distortion is even order (like a tube amp) and sounds "warm" and "pleasing" to many listeners.

XBL^2 reduces BL distortion drastically (which people are used to hearing) and also reduces QTS shift over stroke dramatically... the Brahma also had a very linear suspension within it's intended operating region so it had very little parameter shift of any kind until you were past ~2" p-p stroke :

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/misc/dumax/details/adire_audio_brahma_12.pdf

The best thing about reducing BL distortion and also inductive distortion (XBL^2 does this too) is that these are odd order distortions so they sound more unpleasant than even order. Of course... the Brahma reduced both even & odd order harmonics so it was really a "night and day" comparison if you owned a standard driver & switched. I personally had a Brahma 15 and it took me a while to get used to it... but once I lived with that low distortion sound for a while I was hooked.

An "average" speaker has neither a linear suspension NOR a linear BL curve so they really are chock full of all sorts of distortion... but people are accustomed to it.

Down the line I plan to sell some models that incorporate XBL^2 as well as my low distortion suspension -- that is another level entirely of distortion reduction. I'm sure I'll have to go through a period of re-educating consumers again. The only real issue is that for car-audio is that XBL drivers use a smaller coil so thus don't take as much of a thermal beating so it's not something I'd put in everything just for that reason.

As far as I am concerned... any technology that keeps the "big 3" (BL, CMS, LE) more linear over stroke is a winner.

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

Also... I speak with Dan Wiggins very frequently (the guy who invented XBL / owned Adire Audio)... XBL is used in A LOT of stuff these days. Dan prefers to work behind the scenes for companies rather than selling his own brand anymore but he does ALOT of work for ALOT of people and XBL is used in a ton of products because it is, without question, an objectively lower distortion motor design. In many smaller applications it can also reduce production cost as well =)

I just picked up a set of Vanatoo monitors on Amazon for my office at home... they use XBL mids -- VERY impressive set of speakers for 500 bucks.

 

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

I very much enjoyed the sound of the xbl^2 re xxx I got my hands on a while back. Certainly is a different sound but it's honestly the way it should sound. Haven't had the chance to hear a midrange xbl driver but now I certainly am curious

Thanks for taking the time to input some information for those of us not so experienced, Jacob.

 

[The Camry]

I very much enjoyed the sound of the xbl^2 re xxx I got my hands on a while back. Certainly is a different sound but it's honestly the way it should sound. Haven't had the chance to hear a midrange xbl driver but now I certainly am curious
Thanks for taking the time to input some information for those of us not so experienced, Jacob.

Si just released their xbl^2 tweeter, its not a midrange but it can cross pretty low

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

I love me some xbl subs especially for a daily driver. I'm patiently waiting for Jacob to release some. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

I think my first production XBL^2 subwoofer may end up being the Z-6.5SW that I'm working on... big brother to the X-6.5SW

 

[trust fund baby]

eh, wasn't the lack of distortion that I disliked. it was the fact the driver was useless above about 55ish hertz. I crossover at 80, so...

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

It's interesting... it's either a love or hate thing. People are VERY much accustomed to added distortion in their speakers. No matter how fancy a speaker is in terms of exotic materials, so on, and so forth... it will still sound objectively better if you reduce parameter shift over stroke -- but a large number of people will still prefer the higher distortion sound and claim it is "better."
I've been through the same thing after launching my new platform products... I've removed a huge factor in FS & QTS shift over stroke by using an extremely linear suspension so the sound is very different. Starting with the suspension is especially challenging since this distortion is even order (like a tube amp) and sounds "warm" and "pleasing" to many listeners.

XBL^2 reduces BL distortion drastically (which people are used to hearing) and also reduces QTS shift over stroke dramatically... the Brahma also had a very linear suspension within it's intended operating region so it had very little parameter shift of any kind until you were past ~2" p-p stroke :

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/misc/dumax/details/adire_audio_brahma_12.pdf

The best thing about reducing BL distortion and also inductive distortion (XBL^2 does this too) is that these are odd order distortions so they sound more unpleasant than even order. Of course... the Brahma reduced both even & odd order harmonics so it was really a "night and day" comparison if you owned a standard driver & switched. I personally had a Brahma 15 and it took me a while to get used to it... but once I lived with that low distortion sound for a while I was hooked.

An "average" speaker has neither a linear suspension NOR a linear BL curve so they really are chock full of all sorts of distortion... but people are accustomed to it.

Down the line I plan to sell some models that incorporate XBL^2 as well as my low distortion suspension -- that is another level entirely of distortion reduction. I'm sure I'll have to go through a period of re-educating consumers again. The only real issue is that for car-audio is that XBL drivers use a smaller coil so thus don't take as much of a thermal beating so it's not something I'd put in everything just for that reason.

As far as I am concerned... any technology that keeps the "big 3" (BL, CMS, LE) more linear over stroke is a winner.

when your measure power compression over stroke XBL^2 its has the highest.

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

power compression over stroke XBL its has the highest.

It's really easy enough to deal with, IMO -- good air cooling, conduction cooling (ex: Sonos Play.1 XBL mid uses aluminum cone as a heat-sink) and/or go to a bigger diameter coil (same mass as a longer / smaller diameter).

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

It's really easy enough to deal with, IMO -- good air cooling, conduction cooling (ex: Sonos Play.1 XBL mid uses aluminum cone as a heat-sink) and/or go to a bigger diameter coil (same mass as a longer / smaller diameter).

In my testing. which Ill add by a long shot you and no doubt Mr Wiggins easily surpasses my knowledge in this area. i find it just the opposite. ive used long gap long coils(of course there IS a ratio and science behind it) that the B/l in such a design has a very flat curve(with respect to minimizing stray flux fields and have a very concentrated air gap and flux density in said gap) ive found that i can get a very flat b/l curve and a fallter non linear curver over stroke with decreased power compression at the cost of increased inductance and increased motor strength. which i choose to find the correct inductance "absorption" as apposed to the opposite. i'll stand by the fact that with the proper shorting rings implemented into the motors to A control flux and flux modulation within the gap and B have enough copper to control inductance i can achieve very very similar distortion results.

ill be testing a driver very shortly with 10" progressive spiders on a 3" coil and its going to have a pretty big top-plate and a pretty long winding height.

another direct way to measure motor strength and actual linearly minus your suspension and acoustic losses is direct measurement of output over stroke and input power. id say its the MOST accurate way to measure lineartly in a real worl application..

if you disagree please lets discuss so i can save time and money.. lol

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

eh, wasn't the lack of distortion that I disliked. it was the fact the driver was useless above about 55ish hertz. I crossover at 80, so...

Having owned one as well & understanding the physical reality of a driver with a very low inductance such as the Brahma... that is really a myth / misunderstanding. Nothing about the driver will cut-off output prematurely at the top-end compared to other drivers.

It's the lack of QTS/FS shift over stroke -- thus not generating any "upper-bass" peaks over stroke -- that creates this impression when compared to a "standard" driver.

I've been through the same thing talking to folks about my new platform drivers as well... combine this with the fact that people will get a driver with a static FS of ~30 Hz (with almost no FS shift) then put it in a car in an excessively big, super-low tuned box... the bottom end simply over-powers the top-end. This is a case of too much bottom end; not a case of lacking top-end.

Linear sub-woofers do require a bit of rethinking on system configurations.

What was your box like ? I ran my Brahma sealed thus avoiding exaggerating the bottom-end excessively and I enjoyed the heck out of it crossed at 80 Hz.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Having owned one as well & understanding the physical reality of a driver with a very low inductance such as the Brahma... that is really a myth / misunderstanding. Nothing about the driver will cut-off output prematurely at the top-end compared to other drivers.
It's the lack of QTS/FS shift over stroke -- thus not generating any "upper-bass" peaks over stroke -- that creates this impression when compared to a "standard" driver.

I've been through the same thing talking to folks about my new platform drivers as well... combine this with the fact that people will get a driver with a static FS of ~30 Hz (with almost no FS shift) then put it in a car in an excessively big, super-low tuned box... the bottom end simply over-powers the top-end. This is a case of too much bottom end; not a case of lacking top-end.

Linear sub-woofers do require a bit of rethinking on system configurations.

What was your box like ? I ran my Brahma sealed thus avoiding exaggerating the bottom-end excessively and I enjoyed the heck out of it crossed at 80 Hz.

remember those days of the DD 9500s with those horribly non linear spiders. i bet the FS over 20mm of stroke was 60hz,.. lol

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

In my testing. which Ill add by a long shot you and no doubt Mr Wiggins easily surpasses my knowledge in this area. i find it just the opposite. ive used long gap long coils(of course there IS a ratio and science behind it) that the B/l in such a design has a very flat curve(with respect to minimizing stray flux fields and have a very concentrated air gap and flux density in said gap) ive found that i can get a very flat b/l curve and a fallter non linear curver over stroke with decreased power compression at the cost of increased inductance and increased motor strength. which i choose to find the correct inductance "absorption" as apposed to the opposite. i'll stand by the fact that with the proper shorting rings implemented into the motors to A control flux and flux modulation within the gap and B have enough copper to control inductance i can achieve very very similar distortion results.
ill be testing a driver very shortly with 10" progressive spiders on a 3" coil and its going to have a pretty big top-plate and a pretty long winding height.

another direct way to measure motor strength and actual linearly minus your suspension and acoustic losses is direct measurement of output over stroke and input power. id say its the MOST accurate way to measure lineartly in a real worl application..

if you disagree please lets discuss so i can save time and money.. lol

I currently design many of my car woofers very much like what you are describing -- long top plates & long coils. For instance... the NS v.3 uses a 45mm top plate and 80mm long coil -- we have one placing very well in SQ competitions right now (I also used a full pole shorting sleeve on that one). So I won't say I disagree -- that will work very well.

It's the reality of what the majority of my customers want as well -- and you can certainly get respectable BL performance & very good sound quality.

Although, if I was designing for ultimate reference low distortion I would still opt for a linear topology like XBL or one of the alternatives. Which is what I'll be doing in such drivers =)