What a...

[Proximity 10+ year member]

I'm sure Karl Marx is very proud of you. Please give us one example of your collectivist/stateist utipia in practice?
I was going to write a lengthy reply to your drivel but you are beyond hope. Keep on ******* your thumb believing that more/bigger government is going to help you. The historical evidence is pretty stacked against you.

The US is pretty close to my collectivist/statist utopia. Some changes I would like to make and a few things I would like to try, but other than that it's pretty close. Unfortunately the Republicans are trying their hardest to take away the government policies that have created the middle class and help people other than the rich.

And you're not not replying to my drivel because I'm beyond hope, it's because you have no facts to back up anything you say. I know this because there are none. My philosophy is based on the fact that the real job creators aren't [just] the rich. Everyone is a job creator. If you've ever spent on dollar on bubble gum in a gas station, you've just helped create multiple jobs. There is not a single hole in that theory and everything is built from that, and that is a completely original idea from me by the way. Never said before. Peace prize, please.

And expanding on that diamond-solid foundation, if you want more jobs created, you need to help everyone, not just the rich, help create jobs. That means spending more money, and that means having more money to spend. That's pillar #2. Pillar #3 is the fact that the rich are rich and they buy everything the need, want and them some. If you give them more money (ie, tax cuts) it just goes into a savings account doing nothing for the economy.

So how does this culminate into something relevant? The never-ending republican solution to everything - tax cuts for the rich - won't help a **** thing. Even tax cuts for the middle class won't get us out of our high unemployment anytime soon. What needs to happen is to put money into the hands of those without jobs. That means unemployment pays or, preferably, job programs. Jobs programs that worked wonders in the Great Depression. Jobs programs like the one Obama spoke announced a couple weeks ago. Jobs programs that Republicans won't vote for.

More things are needed to improve the economy long term, but I need to sleep.

 

[thevic24 5,000+ posts]

"Pillar #3 is the fact that the rich are rich and they buy everything the need, want and them some. If you give them more money (ie, tax cuts) it just goes into a savings account doing nothing for the economy."

So why don't you just give all of you money to the goverment then? You must not need it then and by your statement, must feel that way about every one with money.

What is wrong with busting your ass and making a very nice living for your self and saving some money??

So because I made me a nice living and decide to save some money, I should be punished for that?

Greed comes to mind......so many people want what others have worked a life time for. So many people seem to think

that they are entitled to be given what others have with no effort on their part to achieve these things.

Iam sorry but its not greed when workd for it and earned it.......it is totally greed when you hold you hand out and demand it!

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

That is fine if you want that ideal. Ideally, people wouldn't need to rely on the government and people wouldn't be so greedy that they extort everyone else to get their own money. However in the world we live in, consumers and workers need to be protected. They need to rely on government for a middle class to exist. So the question is, do your principles make for a better economy? The answer is no. Disagree with welfare on principle? That's fine. But the fact that it benefits the economy as a whole is concrete.

This is why a discussion with you is impossible. I said this: "I agree that more people should pay in, and less people should rely on the govt to support them.", and you reply with this: "Disagree with welfare on principle? That's fine. But the fact that it benefits the economy as a whole is concrete." You dont read what I say, you read what you want to see. God forbid anyone even suggest too many people rely on welfare, to you this means that person is against welfare. If I were to try and explain this to you further, you would simply follow up with more of your deluded interpretation of things I say. You are hopeless, and that's why I didnt bother to read any further into your reply.

Have an awesome day.

 

[AlterEgo99 5,000+ posts]

I was wondering when Proxy and his moonbat beliefs would enter into this discussion. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

Prox, it's real simple...we have a SPENDING problem not a REVENUE problem...and if you and the Obamacrats think that raising taxes on the job creators is going to generate the REVENUE they are looking for, they are dead wrong. History proves it. And again, the only reason they want more REVENUE is so that they can continue SPENDING to keep their teet ******* voters happy so that they will be re-elected...they could give a crap about where this country will be in 5, 10, 15, 30+ years in the future....spend today and let a future Congress deal with the fallout.

IF, and that is a big IF, the Republicans (at least some of them) are willing to grow some balls and take on the issue of SPENDING, then I say good for them! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/woot.gif.aaa6090e619a97b6090d16dd863c5a69.gif

 

[mast240 10+ year member]

I was wondering when Proxy and his moonbat beliefs would enter into this discussion. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif
Prox, it's real simple...we have a SPENDING problem not a REVENUE problem...and if you and the Obamacrats think that raising taxes on the job creators is going to generate the REVENUE they are looking for, they are dead wrong. History proves it. And again, the only reason they want more REVENUE is so that they can continue SPENDING to keep their teet ******* voters happy so that they will be re-elected...they could give a crap about where this country will be in 5, 10, 15, 30+ years in the future....spend today and let a future Congress deal with the fallout.

IF, and that is a big IF, the Republicans (at least some of them) are willing to grow some balls and take on the issue of SPENDING, then I say good for them! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/woot.gif.aaa6090e619a97b6090d16dd863c5a69.gif

like i said bro... it all comes down to how many "welfare families" they can get out to the polls.... garuntee as the election draws closer, the republicans will be "threatning their benifits"... or atleast thats how the dems will spin it

 

[cyn 10+ year member]

Within the next 5 years all states will adopt the 3 year max on welfare like some other states is trying to pass. I think 18 months on welfare is more than enough time.

There is a lot of job cuts yes.. but there is a lot of jobs being created, most people are to lazy and don't see a point in getting a job making $8-10 an hour when they can sit at home and draw welfare and food stamps.

If its broke and draining resources fix it.. If the people thats been in the government for 10+ years hasn't fixed it by now.. well they don't need to be there. They need a 50% pay cut, all health care stripped, and no more 50% salary retirement pension. To many of them is there just for a free ride basically. Their own agenda's not what people want.. then everyone when there is an election is crying wolf over and over again blaming each other.

 

[mast240 10+ year member]

We need to get rid of political appointees as well... You wouldn't beleive the amount of money these guys pull in each year, at worthless jobs they got, because of "what they did for the campaign". Not a dem or repub thing either... happens with both parties.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

The US is pretty close to my collectivist/statist utopia.

Thank you for making my case. Where this usually goes south is where 51% of the people realize they can vote themselves a free ride at the expense of the other 49%. We are witnesing this right now. We are now entering the phase where a massive police state is set up to keep the people in line when they realize how bad they've been ***** and their future has been sold out.

The fact is the real rich people have never paid and will never pay any significant taxes. the 60+% of the people who leech off the rest of us (ALL government employees and people on welfare systems) don't contribute anything to the economy. Bankers, lawyers, and their ilk also contribute nothing. They build nothing, create nothing, don't grow food, don't provide a useful value added service they are just more parasites. Sure they spend the money they stole from the producers, but I'm pretty sure the people who actually produce goods and services with economic value in a free market would be just as happy to spend or invest that money without a government middleman to hand it over to someone else.

Just the fact that you cling to your "democrat vs. republican" illusion is enough for me to know you're beyond hope. That show is about as phony as pro wrestling. It's time for the simpletons that are dazzled by this punch and judy show to start look at the continuity of agenda that's been going on for nearly a century and realize that apart from rhetoric no matter which "side" is in office we're all getting fucked. Who bankrolls your savior democrats when they campaign? The same banks and corporations that they own that bankroll the other guys. Time to expand your childish worldview and start to look at who really calls the shots.

Furthermore any economic discussion that doesn't take into account money supply and fractional (fictional) reserve lending is nearly completely pointless and missing the largest part of the picture. The elephant in the living room is the manipulation of money supply by the private banking cartel from whom we borrow our worthless paper at interest. Ignoring money supply, money creation, and the historical effect of this proves you are incompetent to even debate with. At this point I'm not even writing this for Mr. Marx, but for other people who may be capable of doing some reading on these subjects to learn how money really works.

I'll even concede that at this point we ought to just go ahead and tax the hell out of everyone. If our public servents want to throw a bunch of wars and social (engineering) programs around the masses should at least be forced to pay for them. Perhaps that would get people angry enough to start throwing out encumbents and really take a look at how bad we're being fleeced.

1. Get an honest money system. If not one backed by gold and silver, one backed by GDP with controlled rate of inflation to allow reasonable growth. If fiat based currency is needed, we must make sure it is not interest bearing.

2. Oppressive tarrifs on imports.

3. Reduce regulation and other costs of doing business here (companies have been rewarded for shipping jobs overseas and punished with high costs and regulations for doing business here for a long time)

4. Someone needs to flucking go out and work! We need to start creating things of real value here. As much value as a welfare brood-sow adds to our economy in your collectivist fantasy, for some reason it doesn't seem to have a lot of export value. Right now our largest exports are dollars, jobs, and war (in that order) this is completely unsustainable. We need to export raw materials, value added goods, and food.

I've seen some real economic solutions proposed, but sadly the masses are so dumbed down by state run schools and baffled by the corporate owned media, they wouldn't even understand half the words used to discuss the issue in a productive manner. George Orwell figured this out decades ago, a system can down the language enough and dumb down the masses to a point where the words don't even exist to dissent or come up with real ways to escape the trap.

Go read some books on economics (apart from the communist manifesto) and start doing a little research into where money comes from and how it really works. When you're competent to discuss real economic issues I'll engage you in a serious conversation.

 

[wickedwitt 10+ year member]

I would imagine that was obvious considering that is the only tax that my quote discussed. Said tax is a pretty big deal bro.

If they would stop rewarding people for getting on the government tit, and help actually stimulate the economy to where business will hire, their revenue will go up by an increased labour force alongside increased wages for those currently employed.

Yes. I believe in equality. I don't care if people want to me lazy unemployed faggots, but that doesn't mean they should get a free ride.

Seconded

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Thank you for making my case. Where this usually goes south is where 51% of the people realize they can vote themselves a free ride at the expense of the other 49%. We are witnesing this right now. We are now entering the phase where a massive police state is set up to keep the people in line when they realize how bad they've been ***** and their future has been sold out.
The fact is the real rich people have never paid and will never pay any significant taxes. the 60+% of the people who leech off the rest of us (ALL government employees and people on welfare systems) don't contribute anything to the economy. Bankers, lawyers, and their ilk also contribute nothing. They build nothing, create nothing, don't grow food, don't provide a useful value added service they are just more parasites. Sure they spend the money they stole from the producers, but I'm pretty sure the people who actually produce goods and services with economic value in a free market would be just as happy to spend or invest that money without a government middleman to hand it over to someone else.

Just the fact that you cling to your "democrat vs. republican" illusion is enough for me to know you're beyond hope. That show is about as phony as pro wrestling. It's time for the simpletons that are dazzled by this punch and judy show to start look at the continuity of agenda that's been going on for nearly a century and realize that apart from rhetoric no matter which "side" is in office we're all getting fucked. Who bankrolls your savior democrats when they campaign? The same banks and corporations that they own that bankroll the other guys. Time to expand your childish worldview and start to look at who really calls the shots.

Furthermore any economic discussion that doesn't take into account money supply and fractional (fictional) reserve lending is nearly completely pointless and missing the largest part of the picture. The elephant in the living room is the manipulation of money supply by the private banking cartel from whom we borrow our worthless paper at interest. Ignoring money supply, money creation, and the historical effect of this proves you are incompetent to even debate with. At this point I'm not even writing this for Mr. Marx, but for other people who may be capable of doing some reading on these subjects to learn how money really works.

I'll even concede that at this point we ought to just go ahead and tax the hell out of everyone. If our public servents want to throw a bunch of wars and social (engineering) programs around the masses should at least be forced to pay for them. Perhaps that would get people angry enough to start throwing out encumbents and really take a look at how bad we're being fleeced.

1. Get an honest money system. If not one backed by gold and silver, one backed by GDP with controlled rate of inflation to allow reasonable growth. If fiat based currency is needed, we must make sure it is not interest bearing.

2. Oppressive tarrifs on imports.

3. Reduce regulation and other costs of doing business here (companies have been rewarded for shipping jobs overseas and punished with high costs and regulations for doing business here for a long time)

4. Someone needs to flucking go out and work! We need to start creating things of real value here. As much value as a welfare brood-sow adds to our economy in your collectivist fantasy, for some reason it doesn't seem to have a lot of export value. Right now our largest exports are dollars, jobs, and war (in that order) this is completely unsustainable. We need to export raw materials, value added goods, and food.

I've seen some real economic solutions proposed, but sadly the masses are so dumbed down by state run schools and baffled by the corporate owned media, they wouldn't even understand half the words used to discuss the issue in a productive manner. George Orwell figured this out decades ago, a system can down the language enough and dumb down the masses to a point where the words don't even exist to dissent or come up with real ways to escape the trap.

Go read some books on economics (apart from the communist manifesto) and start doing a little research into where money comes from and how it really works. When you're competent to discuss real economic issues I'll engage you in a serious conversation.

You mean... we cant sustain our economy if everyone works at McDonalds? *gasp* Ive been saying for almost 20 years now that US manufacturing is the key to keeping our economy strong. If we dont make things... real, tangible things, that people want to buy, we are doomed to fail on the largest scale possible. Cars, tractors, airplanes, computers, textiles, produce and other foods... these are real products that make real profit for the economy.

The only portion of your post I *somewhat* disagree with is the strong import tariffs. That is a temporary solution, but in the ever increasing 'world economy', we cannot rely on isolationism forever. We need to solve some serious problems, like the difference in value of currency affecting labor rates (how someone in China can make a living wage off 50 cents a week). But yes, in the short term at least, we need to focus MUCH more on protecting what little manufacturing we have left, and rebuild what we've lost. Even if that does mean a time of isolationism financially. If we continue down this path of everyone wanting to make a living off producing nothing real (bankers, wall street investors, even web developers), we are screwed. When a liberal is confronted with this idea, they usually fall back on 'we need to go high tech', you know, with model companies like Solyndra. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Nice post hispls.

And keep in mind, Prox is a college student, and one who has admittedly never taken an economics class yet. He is so buried in the partisan game, I lost hope of having any meaningful conversation with him months ago.

 

[Proximity 10+ year member]

This is why a discussion with you is impossible. I said this: "I agree that more people should pay in, and less people should rely on the govt to support them.", and you reply with this: "Disagree with welfare on principle? That's fine. But the fact that it benefits the economy as a whole is concrete." You dont read what I say, you read what you want to see. God forbid anyone even suggest too many people rely on welfare, to you this means that person is against welfare. If I were to try and explain this to you further, you would simply follow up with more of your deluded interpretation of things I say. You are hopeless, and that's why I didnt bother to read any further into your reply.
Have an awesome day.

I didn't mean to imply that you were against welfare. I'm simply using it as an example for my principles versus practicality argument.

 

[Proximity 10+ year member]

Yes. I believe in equality. I don't care if people want to me lazy unemployed faggots, but that doesn't mean they should get a free ride.

So the .01% of people are are lazy unemployed faggots ruin for the other 49.01% who aren't necessarily lazy, work just as hard as anyone but aren't as fortunate as others? This is your problem, you seem to think that if you aren't rich then you're just a lazy *******. The world isn't that black and white.

 

[Proximity 10+ year member]

most people are to lazy and don't see a point in getting a job making $8-10 an hour when they can sit at home and draw welfare and food stamps.

Proof?

And what is funny is that you say congressmen are paid too much to care about "the people", implying that they only care about rich people because they're rich and the only care about themselves, but the rhetoric you talk about is conservative viewpoints that only benefit the rich.

 

[Proximity 10+ year member]

You mean... we cant sustain our economy if everyone works at McDonalds? *gasp* Ive been saying for almost 20 years now that US manufacturing is the key to keeping our economy strong. If we dont make things... real, tangible things, that people want to buy, we are doomed to fail on the largest scale possible. Cars, tractors, airplanes, computers, textiles, produce and other foods... these are real products that make real profit for the economy.

You're an ace at identifying the problem. Do you have any suggestions what a solution might be? I'll give you a hint, you should think about why our manufacturing jobs were going away in the first place.

The same question can be asked of hispls.