Trying to decide between 10 and 12 in my system...

[Jandry]

A long time ago I posted a thread here trying to get suggestions on speakers and to get a critique on the rest of my system. That thread is here: http://www.caraudio.com/forums/general-discussion/612612-critique-my-system-suggest-some-speakers.html

I ended up with the following installed in my truck:

Pioneer DEH-80PRS

Polk Audio PA-D4000.4 Amp

Pioneer TS-D 1602R 6.5" Coaxials

Pioneer TSSWX2502 10" Compact downfiring sub

(Amp channels 1 and 2 driving each speaker; channels 3 and 4 bridged for sub)

Truck: 2002 Ford Ranger XLT Supercab (sub downfiring behind drivers seat)

Music Prefs: EDM (Trance, House, Dubstep, some Trap), Metal/Rock/Alternative, Classic Rock, some country, some rap, and a lot of various pop stuff.

The speakers and sub were/was basically temporary as Id planned to go with better eventually. Recently, I replaced the TS-D coaxials with JBL P660C components (tweeters on doors off axis, -6db passive crossover cut), and have the money to do the sub now. I plan on going with a 10" or 12" sub. I have to do the sub because the JBLs are so awesome Id have to level match them into oblivion not to drown out the sub. As it is now the front stage is awesome and the sub is adequate, and Ive only got 75wrms at the P660Cs...

I have 400wrms to drive the sub, and it must be a 4 ohm setup (amp is only 4 ohm stable when bridged). Based on what ive learned, to get the loudest clean bass I need a sub thats 4 ohm single voice coil rated for 3-500wmrs and with high sensitivity (90db+ @ 1 watt). I know if I push close to the 400wrms ceiling of the amp, I need to oscope it for clipping and I will. I came up with the following:

Polk Audio MM1040 10"- 350wrms, 91db @ 1 watt, 4ohm SVC, .66 cuft sealed box

Polk Audio MM1240 12"- 425wrms, 92db @ 1 watt, 4ohm SVC, .88 cuft sealed box

Since I can fit both, im leaning towards the 12 as its more sensitive, rated for more power, and has more cone area. However, I do need it to be capable of tight bass (like double kick bass in metal), and ive read alot of opinions saying 10s are tighter. Id like to stay sealed. Can any of you give me advice on what would give me the best clean bass? Are these subs good? Is there some other high sensitivity sub thats better?

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[garychoffmann 10+ year member]

Polk's are ok... In a sealed application both will have articulate bass.... Theoretically. Personally I like sundown sd series. I have an sd2 12 and like that a lot. It's all around a good player.

 

[Louisiana_CRX 5,000+ posts]

A long time ago I posted a thread here trying to get suggestions on speakers and to get a critique on the rest of my system. That thread is here: http://www.caraudio.com/forums/general-discussion/612612-critique-my-system-suggest-some-speakers.html
I ended up with the following installed in my truck:

Pioneer DEH-80PRS

Polk Audio PA-D4000.4 Amp

Pioneer TS-D 1602R 6.5" Coaxials

Pioneer TSSWX2502 10" Compact downfiring sub

(Amp channels 1 and 2 driving each speaker; channels 3 and 4 bridged for sub)

Truck: 2002 Ford Ranger XLT Supercab (sub downfiring behind drivers seat)

Music Prefs: EDM (Trance, House, Dubstep, some Trap), Metal/Rock/Alternative, Classic Rock, some country, some rap, and a lot of various pop stuff.

The speakers and sub were/was basically temporary as Id planned to go with better eventually. Recently, I replaced the TS-D coaxials with JBL P660C components (tweeters on doors off axis, -6db passive crossover cut), and have the money to do the sub now. I plan on going with a 10" or 12" sub. I have to do the sub because the JBLs are so awesome Id have to level match them into oblivion not to drown out the sub. As it is now the front stage is awesome and the sub is adequate, and Ive only got 75wrms at the P660Cs...

I have 400wrms to drive the sub, and it must be a 4 ohm setup (amp is only 4 ohm stable when bridged). Based on what ive learned, to get the loudest clean bass I need a sub thats 4 ohm single voice coil rated for 3-500wmrs and with high sensitivity (90db+ @ 1 watt). I know if I push close to the 400wrms ceiling of the amp, I need to oscope it for clipping and I will. I came up with the following:

Polk Audio MM1040 10"- 350wrms, 91db @ 1 watt, 4ohm SVC, .66 cuft sealed box

Polk Audio MM1240 12"- 425wrms, 92db @ 1 watt, 4ohm SVC, .88 cuft sealed box

Since I can fit both, im leaning towards the 12 as its more sensitive, rated for more power, and has more cone area. However, I do need it to be capable of tight bass (like double kick bass in metal), and ive read alot of opinions saying 10s are tighter. Id like to stay sealed. Can any of you give me advice on what would give me the best clean bass? Are these subs good? Is there some other high sensitivity sub thats better?

Id go with a 12 since its a single sub setup...

 

[Jandry]

Im trying to understand all the data that I see. Its frustrating since some manufacturers dont show much while others do.

Ive worked out that sensitivity isnt necessarily important, or at least the most important. There are subs with low xmax and high sensitivity and subs that arent as sensitive but have higher xmax. The latter are typically SPL oriented, while the low xmax/high sensitivity ones are more SQ oriented. Exceptions occur, where exceptional subs have large xmax but maintain linearity through their travel and thus can produce more accurate sound than typical SPL type subs.

I guess what im looking for is this: a 10" or 12" sub that makes clean loud bass off 400wrms. Enclosure size for sealed should be no more than 1 cu ft since I dont have the room, which im guessing means I need to go with a higher xmax variant.

I know you guys arent like my slaves or anything, but its been a head scratcher trying to find the right choice- any suggestions? I looked at the Sundown SD3 with 14.5mm xmax but sensitivity looks painfully low considering I only have 400wrms to throw- am I right? I see a JBL S3-1224 with 92 @2.83v but with 12mm xmax. What general parameters should I be looking for considering my box size?

I already have a sub. The box is too small IMO and this causes the sub to "boom" around 60hz- I get near nothing at 30hz. I just want a 10 or 12 that can play down to 30 and up to about 100hz since thats where my P660C's are highpassed.

I would get another amp, but with how my truck is setup a small 60wrmsX2 amp and I can get rolling 3-way active off the DEH-80PRS... I just want to get as much sub with the 400wmrs that I have. Any advice, preferences, etc WELCOME!

**EDIT** Im even open to running a 2ohm DVC in series if you can do that, or run a single voice coil on a 4ohm DVC sub (though Ive heard there are penalties for both). Im desperate for a solid option.

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

Sensitivity and Xmax are terrible things to look at when trying to compare subs. Once you throw it in an enclosure in a vehicle with several hundred watts going to it most bets are off. There are way too many variables for you to be able to look at a couple parameters like sensitivity and xmax to figure out what's best for your scenario.

TBH the SD-3 12 should be a good fit for you. It's an underhung design that should give decent output and good SQ. You don't have too much to work with only 1 cu ft and 400W...so don't expect miracles. I'm sure there are other good suggestions, but none that I can personally vouch for.

Added: If you're dead set on looking at parameters you can use winisd to roughly model the behaviour of various drivers, but keep in mind the acoustics of your vehicle as well as other factors will change the resulting frequency response

 

[nauc 10+ year member]

its the phase response/group delay that will tell you how tight/fast the bass will be. size doesnt matter. its the correct box size and type of box for said sub, that matters. id use a 12" since it will sound cleaner at the same volume vs a 10", due to the 12" being able to put out more output over all

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Idk about you but my 18s and my buddy's 15s are way punchier and tighter on super fast metal double bass pedals than any 10 or 8 inch sub setups out there. Be sure you arent reading from aticles that use garbage subs that use a weak motor and when the subs have more mass, the motors cant keep up with the mass leading to sh*t quality. Most good drivers nowadays have proper magnets that will do the job properly regardless of size.

Basically any sub from

Sound Solutions Audio - Quality Car Audio Subwoofers will beat out the mainstream underbuilt junk.

 

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

Id prob look at a Dayton sub,for that kind of power and space as well as music listening too and small space. just my 2 cents

 

[audiobaun 5,000+ posts]

Id prob look at a Dayton sub,for that kind of power and space as well as music listening too and small space. just my 2 cents

not to mention..most Dayton subs have a 5 year warranty,and if you get tired of it..you can always add it to your home system being a 4 ohm version

 

[Jandry]

Alright, so I actually came here with an open mind instead of trying to have my thoughts validated //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif Scrapped the polk subs on everyone's suggestions and now im checking out others. Right now Im looking at the Dayton Reference HO and HF 12, and the Sundown SD3 12. Im trying to look at other ones to see if I can find a perfect match for desired box size and power handling, but not having much luck.

The Dayton HF 12 says .71 cuft on their site, but almost everywhere else suggests 1.5cuft which I just dont have. The HO 12 shows .33cuft which just seems impossible to me- my pioneer 10 has that and it shows all the signs of an enclosure that is too small. Its also rated for 700wrms which I have only a little over half of- id think that suspension et all would be too stiff to get reasonable output without using a bigger box. The sundown SD3 shows 1.0cuft which is right at my limit- working with an enclosure calc to see what I can stuff in the truck.

Going to try to find a sealed sub that likes .75-.85 cuft. I may have to get a 10" SD3 or Dayton to meet my space requirements. Its better to have a smaller driver in the right size enclosure than a big driver in an enclosure too small, right? I use the extended cab of my truck all the time so I have to limit the subbox. At least with a downfiring setup I can set things on top of the sub.

I wish finding a sub was as easy as buying the P660Cs //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[nauc 10+ year member]

how much room do you have for a box.. give us the WxHxD

 

[Jandry]

how much room do you have for a box.. give us the WxHxD

Im flexible to an extent. The absolute max actually is a wedge shape: 23w X 9h x 13d (bottom) x 11d (top) (.97982 cuft)

Ideally id want something (or less): 21w X 7h x 13d (rectangle) (.71 cuft)

Im currently leaning towards the Sundown SD-3 10 d2 (wired in series for 4 ohm load). Calls for .4-.6cuft according to most sites- I can give that and more depending on what Sundown says. Its design means the "stands" holding it from the floor only add 2" to the height (since the woofer only needs 1.5" of space in front of it). Im hesitant because I only have 400 watts to throw, but its number one currently.

Daytons seem to either need too much box or too much power. Most others are $400+, too much box, or too much power. Still looking and open to any advice..

**EDIT** Ok.. its hard to keep all this straight when some specs are useless, etc. Rereading I note most of you suggest a 12 since im rolling single sub. I have the room for a box to drive an SD3 12 d2- so heres the big question:

With my limited power, am I better off using a smaller driver (10) due to less mass or whatever, or am I better off using a larger driver (12) for more cone area? And do I have enough wattage to drive either? As long as its balanced with the P660C's I have, ill be happy.

 

[Jandry]

I decided that while I could fit a 12" 1 cuft enclosure, the 10" would give me a much better fit, and the box would be significantly easier to make (Id have to go wedge to get a 12" to fit). I have no router or circular saw/table (just a jigsaw), so expenses would mount. I can make a rectangular box easy and cheap, versus needing to bevel for a 12" box (in my case), along with the many mistakes I could make in the process (this will be my first box).

So, I didnt listen to you guys about size. However, I did about brand. Went with a Sundown SD-3 10 D2 subwoofer, and I will have the box exactly at the optimum sealed size for that driver. Given that I have a small cab and the cabin gain that will come, I think it will do me fine. I am not a basshead but more of a SQ guy.

Gives me an upgrade path. If 400wrms isnt enough, get a Kicker CX1200.1 and run gains at 500wrms @ 4 ohms. If that still isnt enough, build another box with another sd-3 10 d2, and make a false floor by connecting the boxes. Then, id already have the amplifier in place to drive them both at rated power.

I hope Ive made a good choice and Ill like the SD3 //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[k5james 10+ year member]

You should. I haven't heard that sub personally but there's been some glowing reviews of it and I swear by my old school SD1v2s.

I run a SD-2 8" which is basically the same design (underhung, shallowish) in my beater Toyota xcab and it pounds.