Switching to Class A/B for Subs?

[luvinthebass 5,000+ posts]

the lower the ohms the lower the damping factor then?

 

[mysilver02alty 10+ year member]

I've tried both and worrying about this for your substage is stupid, there is NO sound difference on a sub. I guarantee that your system has WAY more holes in other areas that you really need to address that you should spend your money on. For SQ, which is your concern the substage isn't all that meaningful. If you are really into SQ you will be crossing your sub at 50hz and below and having a front stage that can play the rest. As well as I find it completely ridiculous that you have "rear fill" and are worried about the acoustic signature of the class of your amp. Then you did the "big 2" and left out the most important one of the cables, I wonder why you have dimming. If you are really concerned about SQ, take one of your subs throw it away so you have a single driver, get rid of your rear fill, buy a better deck, get some processing, and spend another $300 on deadening. Only at that point would I ever even take your original question partly seriously at the moment it is a joke and a waste of your money. If you think otherwise you are brainwashed by some e-tard and really should evaluate how you spend your money.

da nm, you just got bi tch slapped justintoxicated

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[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

The 1500XXK is Class D, and fits better, but I'm thinking the 2500XXK will produce cleaner Bass. I have been informed there is definately a noticable difference from someone who has used BOTH, with no other differences.

So well...I think I'm going to go A/B unless someone else who has tried BOTH can convince me otherwise.

Again, I'll reiterate the fact that almost nobody goes through the steps necessary to properly compare amplifiers in any meaningful way. Just because somebody has "used both", it does not mean their statements are inherently validated. They may have used both and "heard a difference", but 9.9/10 times the comparison was not done under the proper conditions to be sure they were actually comparing differences between the amplifiers themselves and not some other variable related to how they were setup, power, etc etc which would cause a difference in sound.

As has been mentioned a dozen times...you are wasting your time. If you want to go with an A/B amp...more power to you. But as of right now you are basing your decision on the wrong and inconsequential reasons.

I think M5 summed it up the best.

I've tried both and worrying about this for your substage is stupid, there is NO sound difference on a sub. I guarantee that your system has WAY more holes in other areas that you really need to address that you should spend your money on.....As well as I find it completely ridiculous that you have "rear fill" and are worried about the acoustic signature of the class of your amp.....Only at that point would I ever even take your original question partly seriously at the moment it is a joke and a waste of your money. If you think otherwise you are brainwashed by some e-tard and really should evaluate how you spend your money.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/word.gif.64b12e39f936af3b4fff38a1c0bd0244.gif

(Excerpted the main points)

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

They have adequate-enough damping.
That's all that matters.

Though on a side note.....some people really enjoy their tube amps primarily due to their lack of damping //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

aww Squeekums, I wub j00 too! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/silly.gif.3549b64aaa5b6729eb8e865319a3234f.gif

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

I've tried both and worrying about this for your substage is stupid, there is NO sound difference on a sub. I guarantee that your system has WAY more holes in other areas that you really need to address that you should spend your money on. For SQ, which is your concern the substage isn't all that meaningful. If you are really into SQ you will be crossing your sub at 50hz and below and having a front stage that can play the rest. As well as I find it completely ridiculous that you have "rear fill" and are worried about the acoustic signature of the class of your amp. Then you did the "big 2" and left out the most important one of the cables, I wonder why you have dimming. If you are really concerned about SQ, take one of your subs throw it away so you have a single driver, get rid of your rear fill, buy a better deck, get some processing, and spend another $300 on deadening. Only at that point would I ever even take your original question partly seriously at the moment it is a joke and a waste of your money. If you think otherwise you are brainwashed by some e-tard and really should evaluate how you spend your money.

Ok that’s your definition of SQ, it is SOMEWHAT what I am after as that’s similar setup to what I have now (I’m not going to compete so I could care less what others want), However I would like more bass for some songs since I can EASILY turn it down for others. Sure I didn't replace the 4ga or larger wire to my battery that is about 2-3 feet long. having some electrical knowledge and looking at the difficulty of this I decided it is not worth it. Not THAT much current is lost in a short run of 4 ga. ONLY my interior lights dim, and they would dim with the stock 13 watt Hu as well. Using 0ga wire for the amps only made the problem worse because it gave the stereo path Priority over the interior lights which have more resistance in the wiring. The problem is more likely my 160 amp alternator or stock battery.

The only way I can see getting 0ga wire from my alternator is to actually make a second run from the alternator directly to the battery. But because everything is integrated I need to verify that I'm not by passing a voltage regulator when doing it this way. it would be BYPASSING the Distribution / Fuse block for the rest of the truck........I have a feeling it may create OTHER electrical problems since the path to the battery then to the stereo would have precedence over my Engine, airbags brakes etc! So as much as I would like to finish it (I have more wire) it's not possible at this time and I'm not going to completely void my warranty for a stereo system.

As for my rear fill you can't hear it anyways, it is simply there so I turn off my amps and still have music outside of the car since my rear doors open up 160 degrees. The rear fill is NOT an issue it is not amped or anything like that.

Another 300 on deadening seems excessive since everything ALREADY has 2-3 layers except the ceiling, but I'm going to pickup another roll of BXT for that. A new HU will eventually come but I am very happy with the sound coming from my ECLIPSE 5444....Just wish it hade something other than a 7 band EQ...Just because I don't have money for al these toys now does not mean I don't have any SQ...If you have more money than me then more power to you.

After all this system is in a truck and I want EVERYTHING hidden so I'm never going to have perfect imaging and I'm NOT going to move the seat back and to the center of the vehicle. This is not home theater but I want it to sound the best possible within my budget since I can't have HOME THEATER (I rent and I'm not a rich ***** like some people (not pointed at anyone in this thread)) My only stereo is mobile for me. I don't want SPL setup with some ****in DD's and blah blah 2 18" subs etc. I have no need for such things. (nothing wrong with that if you do) I just feel like 95% of people on this forum are more SPL oriented and switching from class A/B to D will probably not make any difference for them. But I want my bass to sound a s clean as possible since I'm already limited to small subs and location and down firing them with limited clearance.

Now the person I was speaking with has been into Car Audio for like 40+ years. His amp comparison I believe was simply swapping between both arc amps but I will clarify it with him. He has done MANY installs and specifically told me he will never use class D amplifiers of any brand again. He went so far as to recommend that if the ARCXXK 2500 does not fit to just go with another line of amps that makes an A/B that will. He does not want to see me using a 1500XXK....

So squeak what exactly is your definition of properly testing A/B vs D if changing the amp and using the same settings and the adjusting for the SAME power is not enough? To me that IS a proper test. If someone has tried this several times using the same ARC amps then let me know of a better person’s advice to take on this matter. Maybe the 1500XXK just ***** balls and there is some other magical reason, despite it being made for sub duty, I don't know but I am listening. I need to understand why someone who would be so against class D's and I know there are others out there as well.

Here is a segment of the mail I received.

"Justin, In plain and simple English, they have no F'ing clue, most

people do not. I have tested dozens of amps and D class sub amps on an

SQ system always lack a great deal, even the Arc and it was not a cheap

amp in the least.

There are those that think an Alpine 9835 sounds just as good as an

Eclipse 8443 or 8053, there is a world of difference.

( I have owned $2,500 HUs, $2,500 DAC's, Rainbow Reference speakers, etc)"

 

[///M5 10+ year member]

You still don't get it, spend your money elsewhere.

I guarantee that if you let me run your blind test with just a very, very minor tweak on the gains I can make you switch back and forth on what amplifier you like. But perhaps since the test you referring to is the end all you should describe all of the boundary conditions to us and prove us wrong. This is really amusing especially considering this is for a substage.

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

You still don't get it, spend your money elsewhere.
I guarantee that if you let me run your blind test with just a very, very minor tweak on the gains I can make you switch back and forth on what amplifier you like. But perhaps since the test you referring to is the end all you should describe all of the boundary conditions to us and prove us wrong. This is really amusing especially considering this is for a substage.

Your saying not to bother with replacing my Hifonics amp? I will try to get his boundry conditions, this is not MY test. I jsut remember when I had a class A/B powering a my old Bandpass, and it sounded quite a bgit cleaner than when I hooked up the Hifonics to it. And that was a Bandpass! But this was too long ago to know if swapping the amp is what was making the difference.

If your not saying to NOT swap my hifonics, then a cladd D oes not seem to have much difference in price from an A/B. I don't have money to buy both XXK's myself for testing.

 

[xtremebassjunky 10+ year member]

my 1100.1 is an A/B

 

[///M5 10+ year member]

I didn't say anything good about Hifonics and am only disagreeing with your A/B vs. D blanket statement on your substage. Your comparison as your friends are flawed.

 

[tobz 10+ year member]

I have not posted on CA in a very long time. However, here are two things that I have learned from experience:

1. Listening to Helotaxi has always been a good thing.

2. Wiring is only as good as its weakest link.

Have a great day.

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

Your saying not to bother with replacing my Hifonics amp? I will try to get his boundry conditions, this is not MY test. I jsut remember when I had a class A/B powering a my old Bandpass, and it sounded quite a bgit cleaner than when I hooked up the Hifonics to it. And that was a Bandpass! But this was too long ago to know if swapping the amp is what was making the difference.
If your not saying to NOT swap my hifonics, then a cladd D oes not seem to have much difference in price from an A/B. I don't have money to buy both XXK's myself for testing.

Apparenlty you don't want to listen to anyone other than your friend so I'll keep it brief. A good class D amp will sound just as good as an A/B on a substage. Just because you can measure something doesn't make it audible. 1500xxk's can actually be used full range if you were so inclined, they'll do more than fine on a substage. Damping factor >100 is fine for a car. Your setup isn't a 10,000 pure SQ install, you've got ALOT of better ways to spend your money. I've got a 2500xxk and a 1500 xxk, once I finished playing with gains, I really didn't hear a major difference.

What your doing is analagous to this. You are buying a car, your not looking to spend alot, just something "nice" to get you from point a to point b, your not rich, you work for your money. You save up and spend 10k on a toyota corolla. Cars in decent condition, could maybe use a tune-up, new oil, etc. However, you decide spending 5k on a new fancy suspension for your 10k car is a wise investement. The mechanic told you to, the car will handle SOO much better.

Just a couple questions

1. Is your fronstage active?

2. Mids in kickpanels?

3. Have access to an RTA or high end ht setup?

If SQ is your concern, fixing those issues is 1000x more important than a minor substage change. Price to peformance you getting raped!

 

[Justintoxicated 10+ year member]

Apparenlty you don't want to listen to anyone other than your friend so I'll keep it brief. A good class D amp will sound just as good as an A/B on a substage. Just because you can measure something doesn't make it audible. 1500xxk's can actually be used full range if you were so inclined, they'll do more than fine on a substage. Damping factor >100 is fine for a car. Your setup isn't a 10,000 pure SQ install, you've got ALOT of better ways to spend your money. I've got a 2500xxk and a 1500 xxk, once I finished playing with gains, I really didn't hear a major difference.
What your doing is analagous to this. You are buying a car, your not looking to spend alot, just something "nice" to get you from point a to point b, your not rich, you work for your money. You save up and spend 10k on a toyota corolla. Cars in decent condition, could maybe use a tune-up, new oil, etc. However, you decide spending 5k on a new fancy suspension for your 10k car is a wise investement. The mechanic told you to, the car will handle SOO much better.

Just a couple questions

1. Is your fronstage active?

2. Mids in kickpanels?

3. Have access to an RTA or high end ht setup?

If SQ is your concern, fixing those issues is 1000x more important than a minor substage change. Price to peformance you getting raped!

1) No DLS Comps, not active nor to I tend to go that route.

2) No they are in the lower portion of the door which is somewhat sealed up. I don't want them in the kicks because a) they would get thrashed there in a truck IMO b) Tweeters are in the dash bouncing off windsheild, I think it helps because the DLS tweets are extreamly directional. Some might argue but I have heard them in the door and it was too directional. Again I don't want anything sitting on my dash that says steal me, I work in Los Angeles...

3) No.

I see your point, but is the XXk 1500 that much cheaper than the XXK 2500?

My biggest issue is probably the sub box. It's a probox I was testing for them and I'm starting to think I wasted my money since what I find myself likeing is the sealed sound better. Right now the sealed box i have is made of 5/8th in MDF, but it is pretty small so I'm not sure how much it matters for the Assassin.

Tobz, any idea how I can fix my wiring? I do have pictures...Maybe I will start a new thread.

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

1) No DLS Comps, not active nor to I tend to go that route.2) No they are in the lower portion of the door which is somewhat sealed up. I don't want them in the kicks because a) they would get thrashed there in a truck IMO b) Tweeters are in the dash bouncing off windsheild, I think it helps because the DLS tweets are extreamly directional. Some might argue but I have heard them in the door and it was too directional. Again I don't want anything sitting on my dash that says steal me, I work in Los Angeles...

3) No.

I see your point, but is the XXk 1500 that much cheaper than the XXK 2500?

My biggest issue is probably the sub box. It's a probox I was testing for them and I'm starting to think I wasted my money since what I find myself likeing is the sealed sound better. Right now the sealed box i have is made of 5/8th in MDF, but it is pretty small so I'm not sure how much it matters for the Assassin.

Tobz, any idea how I can fix my wiring? I do have pictures...Maybe I will start a new thread.

No, it's not that much cheaper, I think I spent 50 bucks diffference between the 2. However, the 1500 is a bit smaller, and will draw 15 less amps at full bore. If 15.25 inches will fit under your seat it'll fit.

 

[dgoodhue 10+ year member]

The only way I can see getting 0ga wire from my alternator is to actually make a second run from the alternator directly to the battery. But because everything is integrated I need to verify that I'm not by passing a voltage regulator when doing it this way. it would be BYPASSING the Distribution / Fuse block for the rest of the truck........I have a feeling it may create OTHER electrical problems since the path to the battery then to the stereo would have precedence over my Engine, airbags brakes etc! So as much as I would like to finish it (I have more wire) it's not possible at this time and I'm not going to completely void my warranty for a stereo system.

Your 'some electrical knowledge' is missing some gaps //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif You can run a 2nd wire if you would like, atbest the only thing your factory wiring has is a fuse. No regulators or electrical precedence is going to be affected //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

"Justin, In plain and simple English, they have no F'ing clue, mostpeople do not. I have tested dozens of amps and D class sub amps on an

SQ system always lack a great deal, even the Arc and it was not a cheap

amp in the least.

There are those that think an Alpine 9835 sounds just as good as an

Eclipse 8443 or 8053, there is a world of difference.

( I have owned $2,500 HUs, $2,500 DAC's, Rainbow Reference speakers, etc)"

It comes down to a question of whether or not you trust this person.

I talk with people that really, truly, will sit and tell you all day long that their $1000 power cords made a world of difference in their setup and they'll never go back to normal cables again, but are they saying that to justify the damage to their wallet or do they truly believe that? I don't know. I do know that merely owning something does not make you any more knowledgeable about good sound than someone who doesn't, there are a lot of either really deaf or really gullible people out there with six figures invested in their setups.

In the end, it's your money, your decision //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif