Sundown SA-12: less powerful than I tought?

[SPLaudio 5,000+ posts]

look how many alpines say 4v but test out to be 2v or less...

 

[psych0ticnemes1 5,000+ posts]

That is going to purely come down to mechanical limits. IIRC, SA-12 as most of sundown subs are mechy limited so people know when to back off, good poilicy. So I'd def imagine it would be mechanically limited especially in a bigger box. Set your gains with a -6db tone on, I'd shoot for around 1000 watts of power out of your amp as that's probably borderline clipping the output, but shouldn't be too bad. If you hit over excursion, stop. I'd probably use around a 40-45hz tone as that's where your excursion maximum should be with a box like that. If you have both tones, try each and see which moves more, if not, then pick one shouldn't be too different. If you have a SSF I'd sit it around 30hz. HPF at 80. If you don't have a SSF, then I'd also try playing a loud tone at 30 or below and make sure it's not bottoming out as that would be your other possible point of over excursion.
After that, try some heavy rap with your new gains and see if anything seems to be bottoming out on music. If you did find that around 40 is where you were bottoming out try a song like Airforces by Jeezy, followed up with something below tuning like White Girl, another Jeezy song most bassheads have lol. It should all looks good, worst case you'll have to back the gains off a tad. Setting gains this way will allow to be right at the edge of your equipment, so just use some common sense, if you going to really blast everything full bore all day every day, use a -3 tone. If you can use common sense and learn limits, I'd do it the way I just mentioned.

****, -6db test tone? Why do you recommend that? So that bass in lower quality music is still audible? Granted, you can always turn down the sub out on higher quality songs. I'm just curious. I've never read setting the gain with anything lower than -3.

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

****, -6db test tone? Why do you recommend that? So that bass in lower quality music is still audible? Granted, you can always turn down the sub out on higher quality songs. I'm just curious. I've never read setting the gain with anything lower than -3.

Yeah, rememember, even if you set it with -6 tone at 0 on your sub output you can ALWAYS turn it down. If you use a 0db tone, well, as the say with any form of amp manipulation, it's alway better to cut than boost. -6 gives you plenty of headroom for playing tracks where the bass isn't that loud, but it needs a boost. -3db is generally the peaks of most bass heavy songs basslines. So if you set gains at -3 At that point, you won't be clipping except for brief periods where it goes above -3, which is pretty rare, but you'll also only be extracting 1/2 the amps power or less over most other periods. By going with a -6 tone, you get a bit of clipping on the -3 peaks, and double your amp power everywhere else. Given the dynamic range in most music, you get alot closer to at least using 1/2 your amps potential at all times. -6 is as high as I go, any higher and you will run into heavy clipping if you don't watch your bass output and adjust as needed. Regardless of how it' set, even if he sets the way I said with -6, I'd suspect he'll end up running the HU at - something on the subwoofer output most of the time, maybe -2 or -3. If he wants to go up to 0 for a song that should be fine, as always, if it stops getting louder, quit turning it up, that's how you can tell you've clipped too much generally. I've never seen anyone blow a woofer by clipping that really knew what they were doing. Stops getting louder, stop turning it up, so simply, yet very effective. -6 tones, so a 2:1 gain overlap, tends to maximize your amps output overall, at worst moderate clipping on very heavy songs, where common sense should say turn it down a hair for this one.

I'm a SQ guy most of the time, but I have basshead tendecies, so I set my gains differently than most. I set my gains so that with my subwoofer output all the way down, I have a nice blended SQ setting. Generally that gives me ALOT of headroom on the top end of my volume knob. Probably akin to -6 gain setting, maybe a bit more. Regardless, that way I blend at the earliest point possible and can use the rest for gain depending on the song. Lol, for example, there is a version of Celine Dions my heart will go on with almost "in the air tonight" style bass, but it's actually part of the song (I think it's around 25hz though). Unless you have alot of gain knob left though, boosting that up to basshead levels can be hard.

Regardless never forget, a noob will say a gain is a volume knob. An experienced CA.com enthusiast will say "no it's to match the hu to the amp".. Someone who actually knows wft they are talking about realizes that the noob is actually closer to the truth! Gain knobs are a volume knob, but they are to set the volume of 1 speaker in relation to another! Think about that for a second and it should make perfect sense. Some setups are more effecient than others, some speaker are more effecient than others. My horns for example, cannot be set with a test tone. If my horns ever recieved anywhere near RMS power from my amp, they'd destroy my ears (75 watts on 111db/1w/1m. The gain is there as a volume knob. Yes it uses the relationship between the HU and the amp, but that's not the intended goal, the absolute reference for the whole process is the sound. You want things to go up in volume as it sounds correct to you. However, that's a moving target for alot of people since different music requires different setting, generally on the bass settings especially. Combine that with different recording quality and the general need to be fairly loud on anything, and you see the need for aggressive gain setting. Works with mids and highs too. Most setups in most cars, setting gains with tones as most do, wouldn't play classical music worth a ****, it's too quiet. Any well recorded music will sound like crap with 0db tones. It's too far below the reference most of the time to get real output from it.

Anyway, one of my uncles did pro audio setups in clubs, concerts, studios, etc for many years. When I told him about DMM's and Oscope for gains he looked at me like I was crazy. It was when I first got into audio around 16 and this is basically, what he told me. Since then I've learned ALOT, but that has been on of the those things that has remained true.

 

[Golitan11]

Ok guys I get PLENTY of output now it is ridiculous, even maybe a bit too much LOL... I tried just for fun the gain at 2.5 o'clock, with the preouts at the maximum (+6) and the volume at 40 (I should have done it at 50, maybe it is getting way too much now, but it did not smell yet, dustcap only getting a bit warm, and I have port noise XD). With those settings (with a -3 dB @ 50 hz test tone) I was getting about 32V, which is like ~1000W, subsonic and lowpass filter off). Now I get voltage drop, it goes down to like ~12.5 now):

Before it was like this:

Here is a video (sorry for the bad microphone quality and the phone orientation):



Is it really too much LOL? Or it will just be ok if I only do this like a few seconds per day XD? Thanks!

 

[Better-Action 10+ year member]

The video is private.

 

[Golitan11]

Sorry, not anymore.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

it actually seems okay, thats the deal with hifonics a lot of times if you have a budget (180$ or less) head unit, Its actually not at clipping levels even though the gain seems really high. Just to make sure though, have someone with an O scope run through to see if your signal is still in the green. if its clean and not getting warm after an hour or two on full tilt then your good to run it like that daily.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

glad you got it bumping man, next step is probably some electrical upgrades, it'll keep your bass hitting hard longer and keep your amps cooler.

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

Ok guys I get PLENTY of output now it is ridiculous, even maybe a bit too much LOL... I tried just for fun the gain at 2.5 o'clock, with the preouts at the maximum (+6) and the volume at 40 (I should have done it at 50, maybe it is getting way too much now, but it did not smell yet, dustcap only getting a bit warm, and I have port noise XD). With those settings (with a -3 dB @ 50 hz test tone) I was getting about 32V, which is like ~1000W, subsonic and lowpass filter off). Now I get voltage drop, it goes down to like ~12.5 now):

Before it was like this:

Here is a video (sorry for the bad microphone quality and the phone orientation):

Sundown SA-12 (Flux Pavillon - Bass Cannon) - Vidéo Dailymotion

I know it is really hard to see but it almost get the same excursion as this:

If the sub isn't getting hot or bottoming out, it's all good! Yeah don't go running around like that all day, that may be a bit abusive, but seems like it all worked out for you. Did you reposition your box as well?

 

[Golitan11]

Nope I did not. I cannot fit it with the amp behind that way. I would have to put the amp on the enclosure and from what I've seen, it is not recommended. So I just kept my setup like it was. By the way, how do I know if it is close to bottom out or not? Thanks!

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

If it bottoms out you'll hear it, it'll sound like a mechanical noise from the sub. Literally your sub would be tapping the backplate or hitting it's suspension limit 60x per second, but from what I remember SA series is almost impossible to bottom, you'll smoke the coil first. So if it's not getting hot, dont' worry your safe. I guess it's time to go back to show your friend huh?