Subs don't have a tight "punch"

[Kyle_Keating 10+ year member]

in my experiences, 18's are the most punchy. Punchy is generally SPL in the upper base response and it has nothing to do with being small, its really about SPL generated in that area. Without modeling the alignment you have your subs in, its hard to tell why you are not getting that punchy base. If anything, I would recommend 15's, 10's are going to be worse! The only thing that might change is the alignment because all drivers require different boxes for given alignments.

 

[Kyle_Keating 10+ year member]

x2 IMO Tighter and more accurate(more punch).

ported subs are more accurate by definition. Less cone movement, less motor and compliance distortion. This is a well known fact. If you're after more emphasis on the upper bass, the problem can be the port SPL dominates the response. Try putting a high pass filter above the tuning frequency of your port, i'm sure it will start to sound just like a sealed box, this is more apparent with very low tuned ported systems.

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

ported subs are more accurate by definition. Less cone movement, less motor and compliance distortion. This is a well known fact. If you're after more emphasis on the upper bass, the problem can be the port SPL dominates the response. Try putting a high pass filter above the tuning frequency of your port, i'm sure it will start to sound just like a sealed box, this is more apparent with very low tuned ported systems.

Uh, can I ask what you are on, and where can I get some?

Sealed boxes by far are more accurate, but a ported box tuned low can be just as flat through the FR of the woofer and still be louder.

The "punch" the OP lacks is his lack of a good front stage. Good large-ish format drivers (read: 6.5" or so midbasses) plus their own dedicated 50 watts or more per side will get him all the punch he wants.

Kef

 

[mrogowski 5,000+ posts]

Uh, can I ask what you are on, and where can I get some?

Sealed boxes by far are more accurate, but a ported box tuned low can be just as flat through the FR of the woofer and still be louder.

The "punch" the OP lacks is his lack of a good front stage. Good large-ish format drivers (read: 6.5" or so midbasses) plus their own dedicated 50 watts or more per side will get him all the punch he wants.

Kef

He was smoking lots of TC Sounds as he used to work for them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif Listen to what he has to say. He may offer some insight that is off the norm...

 

[Kyle_Keating 10+ year member]

w00tah, not sure if you have ever modeled a sealed system vs. a ported system. I can tell you from experience that distortion as a result primarily comes from the driver, not the box, and in particular, it comes from BL, inductance or compliance non-linearities, or some other electrical aberration caused from eddy currents inside the motor or other conductive components. Sealed systems get the rep for being more “musical,” but the do not in fact have lower distortion. They may sound more appealing but this everything to do with their frequency response and nothing to do with lower distortion. Ported systems, even more so horned system are systems or other high ordered systems do indeed gain more SPL without evoking higher displacement from the active driver at least or specific frequencies. Watch what happens to the cone when you play a subwoofer at the tuning frequency, it nearly stands still which means its completely linear at least on the BL and compliance front provided there is not a huge flux modulation at that frequency and the dynamic magnetic offset gets pulled the poll. That’s pretty rare to happen at that low of a frequency so generally speaking, ported systems at resonance are nearly perfect and there is really no debating that. However, they have a relatively different phase shift from the other frequencies outside the port’s passband, but the audibility of this is debatable, and also they can be detrimental to the frequency response because the port SPL is so efficient.

Remember, ported systems behave very similar to sealed system outside of the port’s pass band, so for example, if you tune to 30Hz and you play a 60Hz sin wave, its going to sound identical to a 60Hz sin wave in a large sealed box so the argument that sealed systems sound better because they are sealed has little to do with their upper bass response but rather everything to do with the lack of low end. The most audible thing you can detect is changes in the frequency response and changes in SPL. If a system is not flat because of either the alignment or the room / car acoustics, its going to sound bad no matter what kind of speakers you have and no matter what kind of system alignment you have (ported, sealed etc). There are a lot of standing waves in a car and you can get some pretty nasty peaks and nulls and sometimes ported systems with their lower extension can be harder to deal with.

 

[tcguy85 10+ year member]

try a smaller box.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

BL distortion just isn't the problem it use to be. There are plenty of BL optimized drivers on the market today that provide virtually no audible BL distortion.

IMO if we are gonna get to the nitty gritty of "SQ" setups, the topic should be frequency response anyway, not BL distortion.

And... group delay is being completely ignored in this discussion so far.

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

w00tah, not sure if you have ever modeled a sealed system vs. a ported system. I can tell you from experience that distortion as a result primarily comes from the driver, not the box, and in particular, it comes from BL, inductance or compliance non-linearities, or some other electrical aberration caused from eddy currents inside the motor or other conductive components. Sealed systems get the rep for being more “musical,” but the do not in fact have lower distortion. They may sound more appealing but this everything to do with their frequency response and nothing to do with lower distortion. Ported systems, even more so horned system are systems or other high ordered systems do indeed gain more SPL without evoking higher displacement from the active driver at least or specific frequencies. Watch what happens to the cone when you play a subwoofer at the tuning frequency, it nearly stands still which means its completely linear at least on the BL and compliance front provided there is not a huge flux modulation at that frequency and the dynamic magnetic offset gets pulled the poll. That’s pretty rare to happen at that low of a frequency so generally speaking, ported systems at resonance are nearly perfect and there is really no debating that. However, they have a relatively different phase shift from the other frequencies outside the port’s passband, but the audibility of this is debatable, and also they can be detrimental to the frequency response because the port SPL is so efficient.
Remember, ported systems behave very similar to sealed system outside of the port’s pass band, so for example, if you tune to 30Hz and you play a 60Hz sin wave, its going to sound identical to a 60Hz sin wave in a large sealed box so the argument that sealed systems sound better because they are sealed has little to do with their upper bass response but rather everything to do with the lack of low end. The most audible thing you can detect is changes in the frequency response and changes in SPL. If a system is not flat because of either the alignment or the room / car acoustics, its going to sound bad no matter what kind of speakers you have and no matter what kind of system alignment you have (ported, sealed etc). There are a lot of standing waves in a car and you can get some pretty nasty peaks and nulls and sometimes ported systems with their lower extension can be harder to deal with.

True, at the tuning frequency of a box the driver is nearly motionless, limiting distortion, however below tuning, the driver can unload itself and go poof. Last I checked, a sealed enclosure didn't have that caveat to it.

Distortion isn't the topic of this thread, last I checked, though.

The "punch" he is referring to is midbass, and no sub should be producing that due to localization.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I said that a ported enclosure, tuned right and with the correct volume, will play almost perfectly flat and will do so with a higher output due to the port.

Kef

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

If the smaller you go the punchier it gets... then **** my tweets must be uber punchy //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

yea get some 8" subs. they should be tight as a tiger

u should of went with 10's.

10 are punchier in my experiences

its forum dependant... go to SSA and you don't get all the BS

see 1 quote for said "BS"

I usually go with an 18" for the low lows and couple 10"s so I dont lose the punchiness.

HA

Ported is for SPL
If you want tight SQ then do sealed.

^don't listen to this one.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

If BL distortion was the key to a SQ setup, we'd see alot more isobaric and bandpass setups in award winning SQ systems. But we dont. Why? Frequency response. Sealed, and IB, have a roll off function that tends to mate well with the transfer function (boost) given by the typical car.

I know its popular to call low tuned ported boxes "SQ", this is generally my preferred enclosure type (currently anyway), but to suggest they 'play flat' is not really being genuine. Any vented system will have a naturally non-linear frequency response, thanks to... the port. Efficiency changes depending on frequency... that is not a recipe for 'playing flat'. And if its meant that they play flat in a car, well that depends HIGHLY on the vehicle they are installed in... and even then you have to get pretty lucky to not require some serious EQ'ing.

Sealed and IB systems will always have an advantage in the SQ department thanks to the group delay phenomenon that ALL vented systems display and tthat sealed and IB systems do NOT. We can speculate over various frequency responses versus transfer functions, but there is no disputing that all vented systems offer phase issues inherent to their design that a sealed system wont.

Lastly, some of you guys need to think about how Hoffman's Iron Law applies to this conversation.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

If the smaller you go the punchier it gets... then **** my penis must be uber punchy //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

Fixed.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

No wonder those Asians make uber punchy speakers.

 

[w00tah 10+ year member]

No wonder those Asians make uber punchy speakers.

That's Racist!

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Kef

 

[khanhfat 10+ year member]

try the hertz Sub they won't disappointed you.. another thing is using sealed box with eggfoam inside it'll get real punchy. The Kicker that you have aren't design for punchy sub. It's mostly for rap music.

 

[Macklessdaddy 10+ year member]

try the hertz Sub they won't disappointed you.. another thing is using sealed box with eggfoam inside it'll get real punchy. The Kicker that you have aren't design for punchy sub. It's mostly for rap music.

hush up