Sub Clipping

[bs199sg]

Additional info:

Testing: I got a new head unit b/c my other Pioneer HU didn't have Bluetooth. Had to redo some settings and whatnot, but I'll have to reset the gains and stuff later today. Procedure: set everything to minimum. Includes amp settings, and HU. Loudness to off, gain (if not already) to min, and my HU's sub setting to 0, and not "+3". Then turn up to volume 48 (80% volume). Listen to subs for distortion/ watch my amp's clip meter. Slowly turn up the gain until clipping is seen, then back off a bit. Turn back on loudness and GEQ settings. Test.

Confused?: I guess I'm confused on why my subs are clipping, if I have no gain settings. Also I had some other Pioneers, 1400 watt max, 2 of them. They produced more bass with a 1000 watt amp than 2000 watt max subs on a 5000 watt one. I went on YouTube and saw a video with someone with ONE of my subs and they were shaking their car a LOT more than I am with TWO! I just don't get it. I just got into car audio as of summer of 2014, so I am still new to this stuff.

Not enough power: The lights dim and the RPM goes up a bit when the bass goes off. Logically, to me, it seems like the car doesn't have enough power to supply itself and the audio. I have left the subs distorting/clipping for a song or two and I can smell them after a while. I feel the subs and they are warming up. The all too familiar smell of a sub overheating, and eventually melting (I melted an old 600 watt sub with 1000 watt during the summer). I thought they were warming up b/c I overpowered them. However, now, I believe I am under powering them. (lights dim and RPM up).

What I want out of it: I want the system to sound great. The subs to shake my car until no tomorrow, and the bass so loud to a point that I have to turn it down.

So, with me not spending anymore money, what info can I supply to you guys so we can figure this out?

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Additional info:
Testing: I got a new head unit b/c my other Pioneer HU didn't have Bluetooth. Had to redo some settings and whatnot, but I'll have to reset the gains and stuff later today. Procedure: set everything to minimum. Includes amp settings, and HU. Loudness to off, gain (if not already) to min, and my HU's sub setting to 0, and not "+3". Then turn up to volume 48 (80% volume). Listen to subs for distortion/ watch my amp's clip meter. Slowly turn up the gain until clipping is seen, then back off a bit. Turn back on loudness and GEQ settings. Test.

Confused?: I guess I'm confused on why my subs are clipping, if I have no gain settings. Also I had some other Pioneers, 1400 watt max, 2 of them. They produced more bass with a 1000 watt amp than 2000 watt max subs on a 5000 watt one. I went on YouTube and saw a video with someone with ONE of my subs and they were shaking their car a LOT more than I am with TWO! I just don't get it. I just got into car audio as of summer of 2014, so I am still new to this stuff.

Not enough power: The lights dim and the RPM goes up a bit when the bass goes off. Logically, to me, it seems like the car doesn't have enough power to supply itself and the audio. I have left the subs distorting/clipping for a song or two and I can smell them after a while. I feel the subs and they are warming up. The all too familiar smell of a sub overheating, and eventually melting (I melted an old 600 watt sub with 1000 watt during the summer). I thought they were warming up b/c I overpowered them. However, now, I believe I am under powering them. (lights dim and RPM up).

What I want out of it: I want the system to sound great. The subs to shake my car until no tomorrow, and the bass so loud to a point that I have to turn it down.

So, with me not spending anymore money, what info can I supply to you guys so we can figure this out?

1: Car shaking = sh*t car, flex is bad = loss of output

2: I just read another thread, are you still running that amp with 4 gauge wire?

3: YOU NEVER EVER BRING UP MAX POWER AGAIN!!! EVER!!!!! NEVER!!! DONT EVEN THINK OF TYPING THAT STUPID NUMBER!!!

4: Hifonics are power hungry amps, if you dont have an upgraded alternator with a good bank of batteries, dont even think of running their amps. You are better off with a proper amp that does 1000-1200 TRUE watts RMS that eats up a lot less power. I'd say sell the amp for a nice amp. After switching from hifonics to my current amp, its like day and night in sound quality, efficiency and output. A lot less current draw to say to least

5: I'm also guessing your subs are in a crappy premade enclosure, FYI you'll never get loud with any box bought from ebay/amazon/crutchfield/sonice or any online retailer because they are mostly almost all garbage.

6: do you play bass boosted music?

7: you do realize that turning the gain knob to the left is lowering it and turning right is maxing it out right? Check because you might have the gain on max instead of at zero.

FOR NOW

Turn off all bass EQ, loudness bass boost on the head unit. Turn off bass boost on the amp. have the volume on the head unit at around 40-45, sub level +6, remote control bass knob with clipping light at max, amplifier gain at zero. Afterwards play your hardest hitting song and go up slowly on the gain till it stops getting louder or till the clipping light shows up. You can also wire your subs in series and see how that goes.

 

[bs199sg]

1: Car shaking = sh*t car, flex is bad = loss of output2: I just read another thread, are you still running that amp with 4 gauge wire?

3: YOU NEVER EVER BRING UP MAX POWER AGAIN!!! EVER!!!!! NEVER!!! DONT EVEN THINK OF TYPING THAT STUPID NUMBER!!!

4: Hifonics are power hungry amps, if you dont have an upgraded alternator with a good bank of batteries, dont even think of running their amps. You are better off with a proper amp that does 1000-1200 TRUE watts RMS that eats up a lot less power. I'd say sell the amp for a nice amp. After switching from hifonics to my current amp, its like day and night in sound quality, efficiency and output. A lot less current draw to say to least

5: I'm also guessing your subs are in a crappy premade enclosure, FYI you'll never get loud with any box bought from ebay/amazon/crutchfield/sonice or any online retailer because they are mostly almost all garbage.

6: do you play bass boosted music?

7: you do realize that turning the gain knob to the left is lowering it and turning right is maxing it out right? Check because you might have the gain on max instead of at zero.

FOR NOW

Turn off all bass EQ, loudness bass boost on the head unit. Turn off bass boost on the amp. have the volume on the head unit at around 40-45, sub level +6, remote control bass knob with clipping light at max, amplifier gain at zero. Afterwards play your hardest hitting song and go up slowly on the gain till it stops getting louder or till the clipping light shows up. You can also wire your subs in series and see how that goes.

I am using 4 gauge wire for my sub amp and another 4 gauge wire for my 600 watt door speaker amp. I now realise that I definitely need batter cable. I was thinking of NVX XW0BL20 20 ft. of Blue EnvyFlex 1/0-Gauge Power/Ground Wire Cable or QPower 0GAMPKITSFLEX 0 Gauge Super Flex Amplifier Wiring Kit for . Someone mentioned "The big 3 upgrade". Would I need to do somethign like that or is the power cable good enough?

If max power is not what should be thought of atm, and rms is... the sub amp on a 2 ohm load for the subs and itself can run "2 Ohm: 950 Watts RMS / 1900 Watts Peak x 2 Channels". That is plenty of rms for my subs (one is 600 rms).

The subs are in the enclosure that my 1st system came in: Amazon.com : Package: (2) Pioneer Champion TS-W309S4 12" 2800 Watt Peak / 800 Watt RMS 4 Ohm Car Stereo Subwoofers + Dual 12" MDF Vented Subwoofer Enclosure + Dual Sub Box Enclosure Kit With 14 Gauge Speaker Wire + Screws + Spade Terminals : Vehicle

So if what you say is true about the enclosure, what should I do? Get or make a new one?

I NEVER play bass boosted music. It sounds too bassy. i like my quality and power. I listen to some Tech N9ne, a lot of dubstep and a lot of heavy metal (Five Finger Death Punch, Iron Maiden, Metallica, etc).

The gain, I just checked is on its middle position (left is -10 db, middle is 0, and right is +10 db). After doinf what you said to adjust gains, what is the next step to make my system sound really good?

A quick question...hypothetically, is it possible to get 1 of my subs to sound wayyyyy better than both?

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

I'd go with a pure copper 1/0 gauge kit that has everything in it, you'll need power and ground not just a power run.

http://www.amazon.com/KnuKonceptz-Kolossus-Gauge-Power-Wiring/dp/B008UL18L6

Big 3 upgrade in a nutshell



If you have a stock battery, that could also be a problem too.

Do you have a digital multi meter? Here's how to properly set gains. The multi-meter will be needed for another test to see how low your voltages drop at the amp terminals when you are playing at full blast.

How to Adjust Amplifier Gains Using a Digital Multi-Meter | Learning Center | Sonic Electronix

 

[bs199sg]

Alright, I'll get the kit you linked.

I do have a stock battery, and stock alt. Do you recommend I get a better battery? Alt? 2nd battery?

I do have a digital multimeter. Ill try to do the tutorial posted as well.

 

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

It's always recommended to add a high output alternator and multiple batteries if you're pulling that much current and your voltage is dropping badly.

IIRC amps will clip sooner with dirty power vs clean power.

you're in good hands and have some well experienced people helping you, follow their advice and you'll be in a better place

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Yeah my buddy tried to put a hifonics brx 2400.1 on a stock 80 amp alt and stock battery with no upgrades. He has hitting a lot weaker than his old JL 250.1 amp and burned a sub. He had 4 gauge wiring too. The amp performed fine on my vehicle but i had some back up battery power and a high output alt. With hifonics amps, it takes power to make power, they are not forgiving on vehicle electricals.

 

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

seems like most of the lower end amps that do rated, do it very inefficiently.

you'll still get a drop if you're pulling that much power i'd imagine (unless you have multiple alternators and batteries), it just wouldnt be to the point that the amp gets pissed off about it and starts clipping and killing subs. lol

 

[bs199sg]

Alright, I've got my gains set properly, and I'm going to try it out on my drive back to work. RIP people driving next to me.

Now, I'll get that wiring kit on order and get it installed.

Anything I can do in the meantime? I should get a better alt and battery, but that is something that I have no idea about. My dad is a mechanic for Ford, so I'll have him look up a better alt/battery.

 

[wew lad 5,000+ posts]

check your filters, make sure your subsonic filter isn't set too low (playing low frequencies that you can't even hear draws A LOT of power) and your LPF isn't set too high.

alternators are an interesting subject, there's so many different brands and all of them have negative and positive feedback. mechman is extremely popular yet their customer service has taken a **** lately (heard it from multiple people who purchased their alts). I tried contacting brian i think the owner, through email, waited a week for a reply to see if he could sell me an alternator and if he had any comment on the customer service, NEVER got a response.

ohio gen has generally good reviews, stinger is generally good, and there's really so many others out there.. i suggest you do your own research and decide for yourself. (dont buy the first alternator you see thats cheap and rated for 300amps, it's crap).

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Alright, I've got my gains set properly, and I'm going to try it out on my drive back to work. RIP people driving next to me.
Now, I'll get that wiring kit on order and get it installed.

Anything I can do in the meantime? I should get a better alt and battery, but that is something that I have no idea about. My dad is a mechanic for Ford, so I'll have him look up a better alt/battery.

just make sure if it stops getting louder, turn it down a few notches on the volume knob. Check your amp and subs to see if either is heating up after a short bump session.

Monitor your voltages, with the multi-meter too and see your voltage drops. Set the multi-meter to battery voltage and put it on the positive and negative terminals on the amp and blast your hardest hitting song at full blast and see how low you drop.

 

[bs199sg]

just make sure if it stops getting louder, turn it down a few notches on the volume knob. Check your amp and subs to see if either is heating up after a short bump session.
Monitor your voltages, with the multi-meter too and see your voltage drops. Set the multi-meter to battery voltage and put it on the positive and negative terminals on the amp and blast your hardest hitting song at full blast and see how low you drop.

I've checked some more alt's out and found a lot of results. However, I've read some other forums and they all say I might be a little in over my head. Before I go any further, to prevent damage to my car or equipment, I'm going to go local and get some audio place to check it out and let me know this weekend on what I should do.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

you are in waay over your head, its okay though, just take it slow, build up some car audio common sense. LITERALLY. use all 5 senses to make proper judgement. If you hear something wrong/distorting/bottoming out or if the setup is not getting louder when you are going up in volume clicks, then back it off. If you feel the sub and amp after a 10-20 minute jam session and its getting hot, then back it off on the gain. If your voltages drop lower than 12, then back it off on the gain. If nothing is wrong and you can turn it up and it increases loudness without dropping volts, then you can try VERY slowly pushing the limits of your system. SEriously though, get a multi-meter and monitor your voltage drops during bass heavy songs.

 

[n2audio 5,000+ posts]

If max power is not what should be thought of atm, and rms is... the sub amp on a 2 ohm load for the subs and itself can run "2 Ohm: 950 Watts RMS / 1900 Watts Peak x 2 Channels". That is plenty of rms for my subs (one is 600 rms).

This particular amp is basically a 2 ch (or dual mono). If your subs are connected at 2 ohms per channel you have 950w available per sub. So power is clearly not the problem. Also, at 1900w of available power and running the gain at a conservative setting the short term effects on your electrical system shouldn't be severe. I understand looking into alt/battery upgrades, especially if you're planning to push that amp to its limit sometime in the future. But I don't think your electrical system is the cause of your current problem.

The gain, I just checked is on its middle position (left is -10 db, middle is 0, and right is +10 db). After doinf what you said to adjust gains, what is the next step to make my system sound really good?

The +10, 0, -10 dial is not the gain. That's the cut/boost control for the bass EQ.

The "input level" is the gain, and its range is 9v min to 0.2v max. If you have it set at about 12 o'clock that would be around 4.5v. Which would be on the low side if you have a typical 2v head unit. And with 950w on 600w subs you definitely want it to be on the low side.

A quick question...hypothetically, is it possible to get 1 of my subs to sound wayyyyy better than both?

Definitely, and that would represent a problem with the wiring of the subs. Which was my suspicion from the start. All it takes is to switch a +/- connection anywhere between the amp, either sub, or either voice coil.

 

[bs199sg]

The +10, 0, -10 dial is not the gain. That's the cut/boost control for the bass EQ.The "input level" is the gain, and its range is 9v min to 0.2v max. If you have it set at about 12 o'clock that would be around 4.5v. Which would be on the low side if you have a typical 2v head unit. And with 950w on 600w subs you definitely want it to be on the low side.

I currently have that on the setting that makes my subs sound the loudest. I believe it is at 0.2v. So I should turn that to around the middle.

Definitely, and that would represent a problem with the wiring of the subs. Which was my suspicion from the start. All it takes is to switch a +/- connection anywhere between the amp, either sub, or either voice coil.

How would I find out if I did my sub wiring wrong. I followed this for each channel: http://i.imgur.com/C66lpVA.png

I hooked up my voltmeter and the subs read (separately) 2 ohms when wired as shown above.