Square Vs. Circle

[Gods_Prototype 10+ year member]

Just FYI, its easy as **** to drive with square tires.

 

[Polecat 5,000+ posts]

patent pending //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

actually, we got it a couple years ago.

 

[Polecat 5,000+ posts]

dont you mean credence //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif

Credence had nothing to do with the design of the L series driver, it was done, all in house here in Stillwater America.

True, to an extent the output is not used to determine SQ points. But back in the day, they were as you have to add SPL to the final score. But as far as using, some of the elite installers used them as midbass, (Gary Biggs, L7 10 in dash) as well as many others. Getting to that magnitude, is alot fo hard work 99.9% of car audio guys will never get too...but for over all street bumping, and even in SPL competition level, they do excellent.

But we have several guys that are 'street' based guys doing SQ, not just the bigger elite guys winning as well. So in the right box, they have great SQ.

 

[BassAce 10+ year member]

its very hardt get a smooth response from a square driver, try to imagine driving on square tires.

Square tires work just fine with me, I don't see the problem. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

 

[Diplexers 10+ year member]

I hate kicker...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

 

[sanzyuryu]

Actually, these days most SPL competitors are running ported systems, which means the sub(s) is playing very near tuning, and cone motion is minimalized. Its when cone excursion is at its greatest that 'cone flex' should occur.
Solo X's seem to do quite well in the SPL lanes, I dont think Ive ever heard of a cone warping to the point of breaking... I doubt the suspension would even allow it.

I do of course agree though that the round cone is naturally stronger, and your reasoning... as I said the same thing already. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Yeah, I totally understand a normal spl system is tuned near the tuning frequency of the vehicle and if a normal to a great deal of power is used, there generally is no problem as far as the subs go. However, I have seen these subs stress with massive amounts of power, but just like any other sub. I was generally referring to HUGE amounts of power in an SPL system, where often with a "burp" or two, every sub gets replaced anyway. I have had quite a bit of experience with larger SPL systems and I do understand what you are saying. But...I have seen stress fractures in L7 subs that came from SPL systems. Quite possibly the box may have been tuned to low and have had too much excursion with too much power, but it seems to be a growing trend for inexperienced shops, installers and consumers to build their own boxes and have no idea how to tune a system. That all being said, I absolutely LOVE the L7 subs and they really are a killer product and very well made. They sound great and they are solid as a rock. But straight from the Kicker reps, the sub was designed as a marketing tool to revitalize a company that was losing shares in the marketplace. . . and they did a **** fine job of doing so. With Alma Gates and the release of square subs a few years ago, Kicker pulled out nicely, IMHO.

 

[Polecat 5,000+ posts]

However, I have seen these subs stress with massive amounts of power, but just like any other sub. I was generally referring to HUGE amounts of power in an SPL system, where often with a "burp" or two, every sub gets replaced anyway.

not always, depends on the vehicle that is using the subs, Extreme vehicles, possibly, some street cars will use the sdame drievr for quite some time

I have had quite a bit of experience with larger SPL systems and I do understand what you are saying. But...I have seen stress fractures in L7 subs that came from SPL systems. Quite possibly the box may have been tuned to low and have had too much excursion with too much power, but it seems to be a growing trend for inexperienced shops, installers and consumers to build their own boxes and have no idea how to tune a system.

in competition, sure, these guys are putting thousands of watts at 16,17 and 18v at woofers that have a max rating of 1500, so yea, there just 'might' be some stress on them. But, if for an SPL setup, usually tuning is at higher frequencies, not tuned too low, unless your talking about a street kid at a dealers show

But straight from the Kicker reps, the sub was designed as a marketing tool to revitalize a company that was losing shares in the marketplace. . . and they did a **** fine job of doing so. With Alma Gates and the release of square subs a few years ago, Kicker pulled out nicely, IMHO.

smack your rep for that one, that's the dumbest thing (he) should ever say. They were introduced in 2000, not as a tool, because 7 years later they are still used as a driver, subwoofer. A tool get's used, the L7 continues to be a top seller. And we did NOT introduce it to 'revitalize' us by loosing shares. The thought into making the L7 'work' actually started in the late 90's.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

my mtx 9500 15s can dance circles around L7 12s from 60-130 hz, let alone my si bm 10s or the jbl gtos in my other personal vehicles.

Just IMHO, but subwoofers have no reason to be playing up that high in the first place without heavy attenuation...100Hz is a job for the front stage.

 

[Polecat 5,000+ posts]

Just IMHO, but subwoofers have no reason to be playing up that high in the first place without heavy attenuation...100Hz is a job for the front stage.

oh come on, my 15's go to 300k...

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

j/k

very true...

 

[Diplexers 10+ year member]

oh come on, my 15's go to 300k...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

j/k

very true...

you too? My L7's are on high pass:

 

[Polecat 5,000+ posts]

you too? My L7's are on high pass:

yes, mine too //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/naughty.gif.94359f346c0f1259df8038d60b41863e.gif

 

[phantom240 5,000+ posts]

How do the L7's and CVX's compare as far as usable frequency response? I realize they have simiar if not identical motors, but was hoping that with the square vs circular cone design differences that the CVX would play a bit flatter up to 100hz, which is where I like my subs crossed over at. The reason I ask is that the shop I work for is a kicker dealer, and is willing to cut the price of the CVX 15 down substantially if I demoed the car to show its capabilities.. But its my daily driver and being such I want a sub that pleases my tastes. Care to shed some light?

 

[sanzyuryu]

not always, depends on the vehicle that is using the subs, Extreme vehicles, possibly, some street cars will use the sdame drievr for quite some timeYes, absolutely right... There are certainly people who replace drivers on the lane at shows after every or every other burp, but you are right, not every SPL car does this, that wouldn't be realistic.

in competition, sure, these guys are putting thousands of watts at 16,17 and 18v at woofers that have a max rating of 1500, so yea, there just 'might' be some stress on them. But, if for an SPL setup, usually tuning is at higher frequencies, not tuned too low, unless your talking about a street kid at a dealers show

Those are exactly the people I was referring to, not a good shop or a true competitor. Inexperienced shops and installers don't know 58hz from a hole in the ground, hence building boxes with too low of a tuning frequency. I am in TOTAL agreeance here. What I previously wrote was also...? I know how to build a sub system and know how to make them loud. I was solely speaking of the people who DO tune systems low, thinking falsely that this will get the sub louder, hence mistaking low bass for loud bass (size of the wave vs. the speed of the wave). There are A LOT of bonehead shops and consumers out their...the literal meaning of the word "ignorant".

smack your rep for that one, that's the dumbest thing (he) should ever say. They were introduced in 2000, not as a tool, because 7 years later they are still used as a driver, subwoofer. A tool get's used, the L7 continues to be a top seller. And we did NOT introduce it to 'revitalize' us by loosing shares. The thought into making the L7 'work' actually started in the late 90's.

Of course the L7 continues to be a top seller. It is a good TOOL to use to make a bunch of money for Kicker...without question. I have been in the business for a long time. I worked selling Kicker equipment when the logo was still someone riding a bucking bronco, so I have a little knowledge about Stillwater Designs. In the mid 90's Kicker was struggling to gain marketshare. There was NO question about that. At CES in the late 90's we got to see the new subwoofers and they unveiled the square subs in their little booth. The square sub was a marketing tool, plain and simple. That is not to say that they did not put design, thought, or tons of money into the design, but they needed something to try to gain marketshare and make more money, because that's what is all about for ANY company. The square sub put Kicker into a much better place in marketshare, where they were not before. If you work for Kicker, then you can probably see this for yourself, with the release of this sub, Kicker began to make a lot more money, and this was solely due to the release of this subwoofer. Kicker has always been a great company, I know this. Its not like they were going out of business, but they sure weren't the company they are today...I doubt anyone would argue that point. I would be willing to bet that this sub has been Kickers biggest success story in the history of Kicker. Having a square sub was not a necessity to sound quality or any other aspect of car audio for that matter, because it is not any better design than a round sub, unless you are speaking of how many subs you can fit in a box...lol. The square sub was designed to get people to buy subwoofers from Kicker, rather than from a competitor. I mean, honestly, what would be the purpose of having a square subwoofer? Does it "work" better? Do they play louder than a comparably built round sub? Which design is structurally stronger, square or round? So, why, honestly do you think they built the sub in the first place? If it wasn't for one of the above reasons, then what was it? I am not saying this was a bad thing at all. I think it was GREAT. I made TONS more money selling these subs. People came into the store and asked for these and we couldn't keep them on the shelves when they first came out. And I hope you didn't miss the part where I said how much I love Kicker product! But if this product (just like any other "new" product) wasn't designed for marketing reasons, then I don't know why it was. Maybe Kicker's sponsorship of Alma Gates originally was just out of the kindness of their hearts, right? Or maybe just like Ms. Gates, the square sub was brought out to expose more people to Kicker, advertise for Kicker, and to gain more marketshare. You said "a tool gets used". Yes, the subs get used, over and over and over. But Kicker, without any question, used the square sub as a tool to make money, plain and simple...just like ANY good company would.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Virtually every product made/sold is used as a marketing tool. To suggest the square cone wasn't, and isn't, a marketing 'tool' would be inaccurate imo. Clearly... clearly it was, and has been. As said above, that does not take away from the fact it can and does perform competively, but the shape of the cone is that way mainly to sell subs.

 

[type[s5] 10+ year member]

With the introduction of their square woofer, I must say that it was odd, yet I wanted one for myself. You know, like food that doesn't look good but you just have a feeling that it tastes awesome?

That was before, though. I wouldn't run kicker subs now, personally. I see way too many of them down here already and I'd prefer to be different from everyone else. All I ever see FS on our local forums are kicker subs and type-r's.