SQ :: Install relationship - discuss.

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

SQ is more than tonal accuracy.
Sound stage and good transients are also very important to true audiophiles.

Subs are very important as are the mid and high drivers. However Transients, EQing, and aiming and time aligning are MORE important Transients are largely affected by install and system design, EQing improves transients, and aimingand time aligning have everything to do with time put into the install.

I'm not an SQ expert, but I can tell you that.

IMO I think that applies more to a competition SQ car or the "true audiophiles" that you mentioned who judge their system by those standards and will go to great lengths/spend countless hours and $$$ trying to achieve that level of perfection.

I side more with the OP and think that DD SQ is more about tonal accuracy and an over all pleasing sound that makes the listening experience enjoyable. I consider it an apples to oranges comparison, but both can make the listener happy.

My only "suggestion" would be to try and demo some of the subs you're interested in, obviously using your choice of music.

I have what "I" consider to be a very good DD SQL set up and enjoy it every time I listen, whether it's some mellow 70's rock, cranking some 80's metal, or old school hip hop. It does all that "I" ask of it and more. Many on here would laugh at my set up, but I built if for me by relying upon the opinions of others at times, but the final decisions were based upon my ears.

It sounds like you know what you want, now you just need to find the subs/equipment that provides that sound. Plenty of good choices out there //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I also believe that a lot of the "install dependant" factor has to do with NOT making install mistakes: box wrong for sub, too much/not enough output to match rest of sytem, SPL sub for a SQ set up, poorly built box that leaks, etc...

EDIT: fixed typo

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

Great posts.

I think mlstrass pretty much nailed it about the install factor. It seems like the biggest part of that is not messing it up. One would think that would be obvious and not worthy of mentioning, but clearly people mess it up often or else it wouldn't be mentioned so much.

Saying "a bad install will make any sub sound bad" is like saying "the sky is blue". Neither adds much insight to an argument. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

And yeah, as someone else said, I do know exactly what I want, but there are a lot of things I keep seeing said that frustrate my efforts. Then again, it seems like dumb things are said mostly in dumb threads, and I imagine my enormous OP doesn't appeal to people who like to say dumb things.

 

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

Try to weigh the value of all that is said, but also use your best judgement. No one knows it all, although some will profess to at times as you know.

If you know the sound you want, demo some subs that you or others have suggested will give you that sound. Simple as that....

 

[azbass 5,000+ posts]

Soundstaging, dynamics, transient response...... All factors in making reproduced sound more realistic.
The install really is VERY important. You can do amazing things with "cheap" equipment. Placement of the speakers and the way they are crossed over are what will really determine how well a sound stage is created.

so how did mine sound!

lol. i need your ears again.

 

[azbass 5,000+ posts]

way i see it, as said. tonal accuracy is a big thing.

a snair drum that sounds like the actual thing

bass guitar that sound like he is playing in your car.

voice, with no stress. and you can actualy hear the slight breaths, etc.

Timbre is probably the most important in IASCA. all the interaction of harmonics and fundamentals of a sound. does the stereo sound like a bunch of noise? or does everything work together. (even more effected by getting louder.

listen to your system low. then listen to it full tilt.

sound stage is my biggest thing.

you got stage depth. does all the sound come from the middle of the car? right in front of your face? dash? etc.

iv heard cars where the music was in your face. (which is fine and can sound great. people like that. ) iv also heard cars where the music was a couple car lengths past the hood.

stage width. is all the sound coming from the center point of your stage? or is the music spread out beond the doors? you lose points for a having it more center

think of it as an actual stage at a concert. you have your singer in the middle. a guitar on the left. a sax on the right. and the drums behind the singer. does your system sound like that? or is sound just everywhere.

then the stage height. is all the music at your feet? streering wheel ? or middle of the windshield. etc.

i could go on and on.

 

[DFW40 10+ year member]

Great posts.
I think mlstrass pretty much nailed it about the install factor. It seems like the biggest part of that is not messing it up. One would think that would be obvious and not worthy of mentioning, but clearly people mess it up often or else it wouldn't be mentioned so much.

Saying "a bad install will make any sub sound bad" is like saying "the sky is blue". Neither adds much insight to an argument. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

And yeah, as someone else said, I do know exactly what I want, but there are a lot of things I keep seeing said that frustrate my efforts. Then again, it seems like dumb things are said mostly in dumb threads, and I imagine my enormous OP doesn't appeal to people who like to say dumb things.

So are you really going to install a sub or sit around being a sub/sound philosopher. I do enjoy your novels I must say.

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

So are you really going to install a sub or sit around being a sub/sound philosopher. I do enjoy your novels I must say.

I'll answer this even though I think it's sarcastic. I already have a sub installed, though it is used, cheap, and doesn't sound good at all. My financial situation has changed so that I can look into spending the money and getting a sub/amp I can be happy with for a couple years, and since I don't like wasting money, I want to make absolutely sure I have all the bases covered and all my research done before I make a choice I will regret.

 

[Torgus 10+ year member]

SQ is more than tonal accuracy.
Sound stage and good transients are also very important to true audiophiles.

Subs are very important as are the mid and high drivers. However Transients, EQing, and aiming and time aligning are MORE important Transients are largely affected by install and system design, EQing improves transients, and aimingand time aligning have everything to do with time put into the install.

I'm not an SQ expert, but I can tell you that.

i thought time aligning was a big joke. the human ear cannot tell the difference..if the speakers are close as in a car...because of how fast sound waves travel...right? i know they need it in big stadiums and theaters...but in a car? you have to be talking about miliseconds of a difference. which i don't think is noticable.

 

[DFW40 10+ year member]

I'll answer this even though I think it's sarcastic. I already have a sub installed, though it is used, cheap, and doesn't sound good at all. My financial situation has changed so that I can look into spending the money and getting a sub/amp I can be happy with for a couple years, and since I don't like wasting money, I want to make absolutely sure I have all the bases covered and all my research done before I make a choice I will regret.

I was just joking with you. Depending on how much money you have Audison has a great dual amp deal and they are supposed to be one of the better amps out there. I also think that the IDmax is a great sub that will will get loud but be extremely accurate.

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=4225

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2031

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

i thought time aligning was a big joke. the human ear cannot tell the difference..if the speakers are close as in a car...because of how fast sound waves travel...right? i know they need it in big stadiums and theaters...but in a car? you have to be talking about miliseconds of a difference. which i don't think is noticable.

Ever wonder why the sound stage seems side heavy in a car if there is a major pathlength difference?

It isnt the time it takes the sound to reach your ear, it is the phase difference between each ear.

I miss time alignment. It seems like Inexpensive, Remote, Pause, and Processing never come togather.

Inexpensive and processing or inexpensive remote and pause or remote pause and processing is all there is... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

I like the way mine sounds now but it deffanitely sounded better when I had time aligment (demoing a freinds Eclipse). EQing isnt a big thing for me in the current set up as long as I can tone down thoes harsh RE tweeters. I could use some more midbass improvement though.

All in good time. By college I hope because once that starts I will be broke for sure.

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Poor man's Time aignment is wireing one one of the sides out of phase with the other. It works in some cases.

 

[bdawson72 5,000+ posts]

Someone should really tell JimJ about this thread....I'm sure he could explain everything pretty well

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

werd.

Jim & Squeak

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

Here is the first thread I posted asking about Subs, just for the hell of it. It only got 6 replies but maybe someone else would like to add something: http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209397&highlight=high-end

I've changed my mind a bit though. I'm not going to do an IB install for various reasons, biggest of which being I have a very hard semester right now in college and don't have the time for it. Also virtually noone here seems to have experience with most of these subwoofers, I've decided not to go with the Aura simply because I have heard no mention of its output and it is only 400wrms. I know you can't judge a sub only on rms but when no info is available I have to go with my gut and decide it probably won't be loud enough for me, so I'm teetering between Nobelium, IDMax and Mag in a sealed enclosure.

 

[DFW40 10+ year member]

You cannot go wrong with the Mag or the IDmax, the other I am not familiar with. I have owned a Mag and IDmax and they do sound great, the Mag will have the most output and sound just as good as the IDmax. They both do pretty darn well with less than 1000 watts. If you need a boxbuilder let me know, I live in Ft. Worth and have built many boxes carpeted, with grills etc. Here are some pics