SQ :: Install relationship - discuss.

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

I've read through almost every single "SQ" or "SQL" thread in this forum trying to get a grasp on everything. I keep running into some common themes that are really bothering me though. First because there seems to be a lot of disagreement on them, and second because they seem totally contradictory.

1) Sound Quality. When I think of sound quality, I think of tonal accuracy. Does it really need to be more complicated than this? "Sound quality is subjective" I keep seeing. Is it? Obviously "I think this sub sounds good" is a subjective statement, but tonal accuracy is not a matter of subjectivity. So what exactly about a SQ subwoofer is subjective? Opinions?

2) Install (AS IT RELATES TO A SUBWOOFER). I see over and over again, "SQ is 90% install" and hundreds of similar comments (referring to subwoofer SQ). I need clarification on this, because afaik install consists of A) enclosure, B) amplification, C) components, D) soundproofing, E) car acoustics. In a discussion about the SQ (tonal accuracy) of a subwoofer, shouldn't it be a given that the C) D) and E) are the same? Why would you compare Sub A in a car with 5000$ of audiophile equipment setup to Sub B in a banger with a stock system? All of this nonsense (it seems nonsense to me when someone says that) would indicate that the actual subwoofer has very little to do with how good a subsystem sounds, which doesn't make any sense to me.

So here is what I am asking. Is there really anything more to the install than how you are powering your sub and how it is enclosed? Also, how difficult/complicated is it to use the manufacturers enclosure recommendation? I would assume that if you want SQ and follow the mfct. rec. for a sealed box you would have that part of install covered, then you give it nominal RMS and you have amplification covered. Equalization, crossover (both clearly important for good SQ), all of that is based on your components and how you tune your system, but it doesn't really play a part when comparing different subwoofers.

To simplify: Sub A properly amped, properly enclosed, and with specific components vs. Sub B properly amped, enclosed, and with same components, should be easily comparable, right? It seems like when someone says "SQ is install dependent" that is referring to the fact that if you screw it up or don't do something correctly it will sound bad, but assuming proper setup that phrase is meaningless. Am I missing something here?

3) SQL. I'm not sure what the concensus on this term is, and I don't really care. It is very meaningful to me. When I am seeking SQL, I mean SQ able to extend to higher volumes. I don't think of it as a mix between good SQ and SPL. I want the best SQ possible, but loud. What is so difficult to understand about this? Again I am either missing something, or people are using a different definition of SQL.

Now to give some background. I am searching for a SQ setup for my car that can get very loud, because sometimes I feel like blasting my music, but extremely accurate reproduction is of utmost importance. I am trying to decide between Aura 12's, Nobelium 12's, and possibly IDMax or Mag 15s. If anyone has a suggestion I would love to hear it.

Sorry if this post seems abrasive, but I am looking for some real answers to replace the countless anecdotal snippets I have come across here. I've become very good friends with the search feature here, but sometimes it isn't the best tool, so I apologize if this thread is a repeat.

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[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

SQ is more than tonal accuracy.

Sound stage and good transients are also very important to true audiophiles.

Subs are very important as are the mid and high drivers. However Transients, EQing, and aiming and time aligning are MORE important Transients are largely affected by install and system design, EQing improves transients, and aimingand time aligning have everything to do with time put into the install.

I'm not an SQ expert, but I can tell you that.

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

Soundstaging, dynamics, transient response...... All factors in making reproduced sound more realistic.

The install really is VERY important. You can do amazing things with "cheap" equipment. Placement of the speakers and the way they are crossed over are what will really determine how well a sound stage is created.

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Soundstaging, dynamics, transient response...... All factors in making reproduced sound more realistic.
The install really is VERY important. You can do amazing things with "cheap" equipment. Placement of the speakers and the way they are crossed over are what will really determine how well a sound stage is created.

werd.

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[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

You are both right, but I think you are missing the point of my post.

The thing is, I realize that the install is by far the most important thing in the overall sound quality of your setup. However, your subwoofer and your install are two separate things, so talk of install should have no place in subwoofer comparison imo. You either have a good install, a bad install, or anything in between, but that has no bearing on how accurately a specific subwoofer can reproduce sound.

I'm talking about the SQ specifically as it relates to your subwoofer.

Also, sound stage is more a function of your front components than your subwoofer, and since we are talking about cars you have you limit the discussion to having the subwoofer in the trunk (basically). And I would like to also add that for an individual speaker, SQ is not more than tonal accuracy. Soundstage, xovers, EQing are all a function of external equipment and the synthesis of many parts of a sound system. When discussing the SQ of a speaker you have to distinguish that and realize that tonal accuracy, projection, and volume are properties that a speaker possesses independently of its setup.

It just doesn't make any sense to say "you can't compare SQ in subwoofers because install is more important", and it bothers me to no end that people use that phrase to invalidate discussion on the SQ qualities of individual subs.

And let me ask another question here while I'm at it. How would I go about making a $100 sub sound better than an Aura in a professional install? I'm not doubting that it is possible, it just seems like the realm of fantasy land for 99.9% of car audio enthusiasts who don't have access to extremely expensive test equipment, advanced fabrication/modification tools, etc.

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

I re-read my original post and need to clarify something. "2) Install." is referring to the SQ of an individual subwoofer. Not overall SQ of a setup. I am trying to determine what "install" actually has to do with individual subwoofer choice and how it applies directly to that.

It feels like this is getting more incomprehensible the more I write, so if anyone is confused as to what I'm trying to get at I'll be happy to try to clear it up.

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

You are asking something with too many varibles. I'm going out on a long shot and saying that any sub can have acceptable tonal quality. Not everyone is as sensetive or has the same idea of what tonal quality is. So one sub's tonal quality to one person may not be tonal quality to another. Most people will find "Perfect" tonal quality to be pleasing but everyone will find another that isnt perfect but is equally pleasing to their ears.

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Also, sub system is important but front stage is what makes the system in SQ. Subs just make the statement. We are a bass/beat loving species for the most part...However the rest also makes it pleaseing. There are thoes who enjoy a lot less bass and there are thoes who only want bass and to hear the words...if that much.

 

[PatFitz9 10+ year member]

when you have two very similar subs, install does make a difference //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif if i was to compare a Mag and a Q, install would make a large part of the difference in sound. while most would agree that the mag sounds better, depending on install the Q might get the edge. same goes for SPL, if i was comparing an Audioque HD3 to a DD 95xx install would determine whats louder.

if it had nothing to do with install, then wouldn't there be a hands down winner for SPL, and a best SQ sub?

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

You are asking something with too many varibles. I'm going out on a long shot and saying that any sub can have acceptable tonal quality. Not everyone is as sensetive or has the same idea of what tonal quality is. So one sub's tonal quality to one person may not be tonal quality to another. Most people will find "Perfect" tonal quality to be pleasing but everyone will find another that isnt perfect but is equally pleasing to their ears.

I agree, my "question" is open-ended and there is a lot of room for discussion. I also agree that any sub can have "acceptable" tonal quality but this is completely subjective and depends on what an individual finds acceptable. At risk of sounding like a music snob (I won't deny it) I will say that personally I tend to listen to very "detailed" music and my idea of acceptable tonal accuracy is near perfect reproduction. That is why I am looking at Auras and Nobeliums, and also why it perplexes me when people claim that the driver is unimportant in acheiving that accuracy (strictly talking about substage).

Sound "coloring" is another area where preferences vary widely. I can speak in terms of headphones because I am much more experienced with them, where Grado's are known for a very warm sound which reproduces rock music better than any other headphones, though they aren't necessarily very accurate because they heavily color the sound in the midrange. For subwoofers, some people may prefer very strong attacks, or deep reverberations, or crisp decay, etc - my preference is as little color or alteration as possible since I listen to many different musical styles and what fits one may not fit another.

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

when you have two very similar subs, install does make a difference //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif if i was to compare a Mag and a Q, install would make a large part of the difference in sound. while most would agree that the mag sounds better, depending on install the Q might get the edge. same goes for SPL, if i was comparing an Audioque HD3 to a DD 95xx install would determine whats louder.
if it had nothing to do with install, then wouldn't there be a hands down winner for SPL, and a best SQ sub?

So what can you really do beyond changing the enclosure and increasing the quality of amplification to improve a subs SQ? And theoretically couldn't you keep the SQ of two very similar subs near parallel by continually increasing the quality of their components, as in your Mag and Q example?

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

When it comes to coloring, bass is funky. Some people prefer the clean, crisp sort of bass that XBL^2 subs generally offer.

Other prefer warm, fuzzy bass that subs like the W7 are known for.

Both can be equally accurate and some cant tell the difference.

Some may like both.

It's like tubes vs solid state when it comes to bass coloring. Some people like tubes better than solid state. Some say solid state is cleaner. In either case both can sound equally great to most if designed properly. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[DFW40 10+ year member]

I do believe that there some subs that reproduce music more accurately than others out there and most subs put in a great car with a great install will probably sound pretty good. I would go with a good sub like an IDMax or some of these other subs that you wrote about but no matter how "accurate" your sub is if you do not install it correctly and know how to make changes etc it will still sound like ***. Proper sound deadning and crossovers and the size of box will play a huge part in this. Sub is the easy part compared to trying to get a great front stage. I think that you can only make a crappy sub sound good to a certain point but it is even easier to make a great sub sound crappy.

 

[CBFryman2 5,000+ posts]

Also, some people call subs SQ oriented because there is a lot of margin for error and they still sound good. A Mag is a great example of that.

 

[Thieroff 10+ year member]

So what can you really do beyond changing the enclosure and increasing the quality of amplification to improve a subs SQ? And theoretically couldn't you keep the SQ of two very similar subs near parallel by continually increasing the quality of their components, as in your Mag and Q example?

Well, do you think a flat response is ideal in an SQ set up?

EQing is an option, and part of the install.

Factors such as cabin gain can greatly affect a subs response. So EQing is desirable in most car audio situations.

But really when you look at it, what all do you have when you have a subwoofer setup?

An enclosure, an amplifier, and a source unit.

If you overdrive you amplifier, you are sending a clipped(read: distorted) signal.

If you are using a shitty source unit, then you are looking at a dirty signal to the amp.

If you are running a ported box tuned to 45hz you are looking at a peaky response and no low end.

So when it comes to a subs SQ it seems as if these are the only factors in which you can change, because these are the only ones involved.

There are many different types of enclosures that can be used in order to flatten the response.

Aperiodic membranes, bandpass enclosures, sealed, ported and so on.

If you are looking into something, what is your exact goal?

SQ and ridiculous output?

There are also things such as sound deadening, which relieve some ambient noise and may take away certain rattles.

This, also, if enough is applied will change the resonant frequency of the car.

CT