Sound stage.

[The Camry]

So i was showing off the system to someone today and explaining to them when time alignment does. Turned it off and then back on. Realized something. My vocals sound a lot better with T/A off. My stage is amazing like vocal positioning. just not actual clarity.

So i looked at what i actually had my T/A at. its kinda...shotty >.>, havnt tuned it since i was in Cali a month back. So i went on DIYMA, started reading up on proper T/A and ran into the "What is center" thread.

Where exactly should "center" be located? - Page 2 - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

For those interested^^

Those that like their center vocals to be in front of them(above steering wheel). Get a bit of a bunched up left stage IE: stage stops at a pillar. Those that have that vocals in dead center of the dash. Get a much better stage width but feel like they are standing on the left side of a concert. (i hate this way personally).

However, There seems to be a bit of a consensus that PLD makes a big difference for stage width and from looking at sound quality competition winning cars. They have their midrange or tweeter or wideband or whatever the heck speakers they use. Way far back on the dash(stuffed where the window meets the cowls) or they have kick panels and a "stage height" tweeter. So 4 tweeters in total. 2 in the kicks. 2 on the pillars. This helps raise stage height.

Im curious to your opinions on this as well as what is center for you guys. Center of dash or center of steering wheel(horizontal plain specifically). Anyone got tips on how to get a wider stage?

Click to read more...

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

If you can get it right center dash sounds amazing. It's hard to explain what it sounds like.

If you don't like it centered you have a width problem

 

[Beerdrnkr 5,000+ posts]

I prefer center of the dash much more. Most competition cars don't have 4 tweeters either. A lot of guys use custom pillars to fit their mids and tweets to get the higher stage height and to get the tweets as close to this midrange as possible. I've personally have never really liked mids in the kickpanels, I tried running them that way with a set of old school mb quart premiums and I just couldn't get it to sound above the dash. I do prefer midbass in the kicks other than the doors though, unfortunately I've never been able to do it in my own vehicles because I'm too scared to start cutting the metal around there.

 

[Beerdrnkr 5,000+ posts]

If you feel it's much more cleaner with no T/A it's probably phase issues you're having. ErinH on DIYMA has a great calculator on his website that will get you 90% of where you need to be with your T/A.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

It really is something special when you get it right.

 

[The Camry]

If you feel it's much more cleaner with no T/A it's probably phase issues you're having. ErinH on DIYMA has a great calculator on his website that will get you 90% of where you need to be with your T/A.

Can you give me the link to the calculator. He has hundreds of threads so..

 

[fly_marlin]

I've also been unhappy with left/right TA and have, for now, concluded center of dash really does sound awesome. You also have to remember that the rest of the stage should still "fit" on the dash. If the center is in front of you, instruments played to your left would then have little space left, so that's why it probably muffled the vocals. Also, the manual for my speakers says (and there are) options to change x-over slope and frequency for the tweeters, which I believe changes their on and off axis response. I'll dig it up for more detail. I think sound stage adjustment is not only done via TA, but also with EQ and playing with x-overs. Remember, if you were to disable the driver side tweeter, the stage will almost full shift to the right. This is also where it gets dicey as messing with this can damage the tweeter.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Can you give me the link to the calculator. He has hundreds of threads so..

I had a issue with the 80prs. It always made the stage tiny and to much on the driver side. I just started moving the mic around during the auto tune till I found a good spot. I think your biggest issue is the tweeter crossover. That mid is playing to high causing it to get raspy.

 

[r0llinlacs 10+ year member]

I've never been a fan of time alignment/correction except in home theater where you actually have long distances/odd seating positions to correct. In cars, I've never liked what it does and I prefer both left and right speakers to output exactly the same, it sounds better to my ears.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

I've never been a fan of time alignment/correction except in home theater where you actually have long distances/odd seating positions to correct. In cars, I've never liked what it does and I prefer both left and right speakers to output exactly the same, it sounds better to my ears.

I thought the same way until I heard one that was setup right. Now if it's not perfect it drives me nuts.

If it's not TAed the side closest to you will always appear louder

People think TA puts the stage only in the center, there is more to it than that. It still fills the entire cabin but it's located on the dash.

It's a experience every time you turn it on.

 

[fly_marlin]

To this date, I've established that TA can be important. I use it, for now, only to delay the entire front stage equally with relation to the sub stage. This has made such an awesome difference, the subs truly seem like they're in front of me and everything hits in sync. I only noticed this after I had someone with a trained ear tell me the bass is "trailing behind." I couldn't put my finger on it until I adjusted it.

 

[r0llinlacs 10+ year member]

I thought the same way until I heard one that was setup right. Now if it's not perfect it drives me nuts. If it's not TAed the side closest to you will always appear louder

People think TA puts the stage only in the center, there is more to it than that. It still fills the entire cabin but it's located on the dash.

It's a experience every time you turn it on.

Meh, my left leg always blocks the driver speaker anyways so, besides the drivers tweeter, it kind of evens out on its own.

To this date, I've established that TA can be important. I use it, for now, only to delay the entire front stage equally with relation to the sub stage. This has made such an awesome difference, the subs truly seem like they're in front of me and everything hits in sync. I only noticed this after I had someone with a trained ear tell me the bass is "trailing behind." I couldn't put my finger on it until I adjusted it.

Which is kind of why I don't like it, it seems as though with TA enabled, it almost sounds out of phase/echo-ey to my ears. Then there's the sub.... if the front channel is TA'd then I could see how it could throw off the timing with the sub because as far as I know, TA doesn't take the sub into account, right?

I didn't like the way it sounded after using the mic and letting the deck do the TA, so maybe I should just try measuring/setting it myself.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

To this date, I've established that TA can be important. I use it, for now, only to delay the entire front stage equally with relation to the sub stage. This has made such an awesome difference, the subs truly seem like they're in front of me and everything hits in sync. I only noticed this after I had someone with a trained ear tell me the bass is "trailing behind." I couldn't put my finger on it until I adjusted it.

You need to go active and put that PS8 to work. Running passive you can't move the mid and tweeter separate.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Meh, my left leg always blocks the driver speaker anyways so, besides the drivers tweeter, it kind of evens out on its own.


Which is kind of why I don't like it, it seems as though with TA enabled, it almost sounds out of phase/echo-ey to my ears. Then there's the sub.... if the front channel is TA'd then I could see how it could throw off the timing with the sub because as far as I know, TA doesn't take the sub into account, right?

I didn't like the way it sounded after using the mic and letting the deck do the TA, so maybe I should just try measuring/setting it myself.

The higher the frequencies get the more directional they become. Your leg don't block much at all. The MS-8 does not TA the sub, Harmon says it's pointless and I guess it is. Bass being omni directional just fills the cabin. If there is no distortion or rattle to pin point it it's all good. It's EQed though.

You just have to hear a good one, a real good one not one somebody that's never heard a good one thinks is good.

 

[fly_marlin]

You need to go active and put that PS8 to work. Running passive you can't move the mid and tweeter separate.

Partially agree. Though it wouldn't be without hassle. The x-overs are truly ******, more ****** looking than I've even seen pictures of. Plus, I am yet to adjust the x-overs themselves, and additionally, I'd need to swap for a 4ch amp.