Sound Imaging, the evasive pleasure, how do I catch it?

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

I bought the eclipse cd 7200 mk2 at a $200 discount from a shop that had it as their demo unit. I got the remote with it, and now I need to print a manual to learn the k-nobs and buttons.

Eargasm's- is that where ear wax comes from????

I've got FL & FR time delay set at 4.0 m/sec, and vocals seem to be coming out of the windshield and door glass....

m/sec or meters per second is a unit of velocity or speed

msec or milliseconds is a unit of time

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Glad you are enjoying the new system

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

I've got FL & FR time delay set at 4.0 m/sec, and vocals seem to be coming out of the windshield and door glass....

Decrease the delay on the FR channel with the same music playing and report back.

 

[duanebro 10+ year member]

Decrease the delay on the FR channel with the same music playing and report back.

I was thinking the same thing, but I don't have a an hu with that type of control. And I didn't want to give bad advice.

 

[MediumTech 10+ year member]

Decrease the delay on the FR channel with the same music playing and report back.

OK, now I'm getting to understand this better. My first setting was my first experience with time delay, just one hour after the new unit was installed, and I knew very little about it.

I'm in a 4-door SUV with front and rear door speakers, and a sub behind the rear seat.

I started with the Sub (farthest) at zero time delay, but then I added "-1.0msec" to everything so I could have the flexibily to move the Sub both up and down because my unit does not adjust beyond zero.

(each of these numbers have "-1.0msec" added to them for flexibility with the sub while I'm experimenting & learning)

-5.0msec, Front Left (Front seperate components near front edge of door)

-2.1msec, Front Right

-5.4msec, Rear Left (Rear 6.5" triaxial, at lower front of door)

-1.1msec, Rear Right

-2.2msec, Sub (behind second row seats)

(I started with the Sub at 1.0, but then I "played" with moving it around a bit, and ended up here. I'll probably keep checking on this)

Now I think I need an audio test CD, or test-tracks to download.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

First and foremost you dont need to delay all speakers. You dont delay the speaker furthest from you. You delay the rest of them so they arrive at the same time as the furthest speaker.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

If your subwoofer is the farthest driver use that as your reference point, meaning leave it at 0.0 delay always. Your delay is increased incrementally with the nearest speaker delayed the most, with the farthest speaker delayed 0 ms. It helps to write down the formula whitedragon's post shows in the image and get out a tape measure so you can calculate the delay for each speaker location. For me I understood it a lot better when I went through this process. From there you enter your delay numbers into the head unit and listen to music. The delay from the math is most likely not going to be the best.

Time delay can do some great things for making your bass sound like it's all up front, plus it can really improve midbass.

 

[MediumTech 10+ year member]

Thanks

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

If your subwoofer is the farthest driver use that as your reference point, meaning leave it at 0.0 delay always. Your delay is increased incrementally with the nearest speaker delayed the most, with the farthest speaker delayed 0 ms. It helps to write down the formula whitedragon's post shows in the image and get out a tape measure so you can calculate the delay for each speaker location. For me I understood it a lot better when I went through this process. From there you enter your delay numbers into the head unit and listen to music. The delay from the math is most likely not going to be the best.
Time delay can do some great things for making your bass sound like it's all up front, plus it can really improve midbass.

I find it best to use the math to get a starting point and then tweak from there based on your ears.

 

[MediumTech 10+ year member]

Thanks

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

Note that above 3kHz ITD is not as important as IID. Delaying tweeters isn't as useful as controlling level with aiming. You still want some channel separation from the HRTF, so tweeter placement is very important.

Some people lean when they drive, so measure from you normal head location, measure the left speaker distance using the left ear location, Same for right. It helps to have a friend do this with you. Measure to the woofer voice coil, meaning add an inch or two if you have to stop at a grill.

The reason we tweak with our ears from here is because speakers are usually poorly aimed, they beam, roll off from being off axis in factory locations, and suffer phase interference from reflections.

I made a spreadsheet in excel and I keep a laminated version in my car with all 10 front speaker locations listed, as well as rear and sub. Yes, I have 10 front speaker locations, but I only use 6 at a time. Door, floor kick, side kick, apillar, & dash. I test often. I miss the H701 for that reason, but I don't miss the added noise.

I don't like that the 9887 uses distance as its metric (in or mm), I prefer msec units. I may try a 7200mkII.

 

[MediumTech 10+ year member]

Wow, cool, thanks again

 

[duro78 10+ year member]

I would get an external processor. Preferably an ms8 it puts your imaging together in Minutes. I fiddled around with my 9887 for weeks and never got right. A lil tip make sure all speakers are in phase or you'll never get the image right