"snickering" towards JL systems?

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i believe what he said was that the se's sounded better while getting louder than the w3's. if that's because they are "in a higher class" than the w3, why are they cheaper? hell i think even after RE sold out and jacked all the prices up, they're still cheaper or right about the same price.
why did the old dual mag 12's (back when mags were sold direct) i heard get louder and sound better than 12w7's in the same car, with all other factors remaining the same? those subs take the same amount of power as w7's. but guess what, they cost half.

obviously my q 15's would decimate some 13w7's for daily purposes, with the extra cone area, but i'd put my money on a q 12 against a w7, and at LESS than half the price.

Are you seriously THAT ****ing ignorant?Have you no common sense? For the reasons why JL doesn't sell at rock bottom prices, look above.But here's one, they don't make subs and sell them out of their mother's basement.And uhhh [no] on the q vs. w7 when they're the same size.SQ, maybe, but it is subjective.SPL. . . . //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Also to note. JL's dealer cost actually isn't that bad, the dealers price stuff where they want.JL will not work on a sub with no serial number.No shit.IF you do buy a W7 online, you blow it, you'll be paying for your **** up.They will charge you a fee to put a new serial number on.Do not ***** like it is their fault for not servicing your unauthorized W7.You chose to save a few bucks when you bought it, and now you pay the price.Why would JL work on them and shoot their dealers (who keep them going) in the foot? If we keep "buying online" to save a few bucks, we will not have any dealers left soon enough.Why do you keep comparing your USED equiptment prices to new pricing? When I get a chance I'll do a little checking around.I'll call 4 completely random shops that carry comparable products in performance and as for pricing from them.Maybe even an RE dealer //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif.

Also, if you have ever seen some of RE's retail pricing you wouldn't be saying half the shit you are right now.I believe the SE 12's were around $250, so you can buy two for the price of one W7.Ok, fine.Does that mean it'll be better? No. In fact, you'll be around the same performance level.Around the same thermal power handling (manufacturer rated).I've seen single 12" W7 set-ups constantly in the low-mid 140's, not set-up for SPL.

 
is that typical after the coils start heating up to loose that much spl? my re sx did the same thing but much sooner and less lenght on the tones.. I usually play 45-50 hz tones for about 5 seconds, after playing around in some bassrace songs for about 10 minutes.. averaging 139.2:D

Impedence rise is the devil //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif

About quality.Let's get into that a little bit.I have seen MANY MANY BRAND NEW subs from quite a few manufacturers.Eclipse, JL, memphis, pioneer, etc. and I'm honestly pleased.

Then, when I see some of the new subs that come from RE I can't believe you people say they have the same quality control (or better). I see chunks of the magnet missing, scratched chrome motors, white shit on the spider and back of the cones (namely the RE series, it's the glue accellerator I believe), excess glue oozing (well, it's dried but you get the point) from some of the joints.I've seen subs where it feels like they ran their finger around the inside of the basket (where the surround is glued to the basket) and then wiped it on the inside of the surround.

There was even one where you pushed down on the cone and when it came back up it made a noise.It didn't take long to figure it out.Excess glue on surround.It was a "sticky" sound.As if you were to spill something sticky on a hard floor, then it dries and when you walk on it your shoe makes that sound.I can't describe it.

I don't ever recall seeing any of this from a decent mainstream manufacturer.

 
I always laugh at this debate over JL on every board/post it comes up in.

JL makes good products. Period. And they do it 1000 times a day, over and over with good repeatabilty. They'll be around for a few years so your warranty will still be worth something if you need it. This is what you are paying for. Unlike these people gluing the biggest surround to the biggest cone to the biggest basket to the biggest motor assembly and selling out of their garage and the company goes out of business when the owner get a flat tire and goes bankrupt.

People on these forums drool over the next mini-manufacturer with the bigger motor assembly and just because they can burp 150db with 10,000 watts they think they are better than a W7. Yet, these same people spend and entire week reconing said subwoofers, because they blew, so they can compete the next weekend.

I've seen people fight each other to purchase hybrid subs that have no T/S parameters, and no one has ever heard them, but they have a huge magnet so they must be good.

JL has managed to build subwoofers and amplifiers that provide good sound with a good amount of output for a decent price with a decent warranty. Other manufacturers seem to be able to only do one or the other, not all four.

This whole debate reminds me of grunge music...

A band was the shiznit until they became popular, then nobody thought they were cool anymore and moved on to the next "new" band. People wanted to be part of a small clique and thumb their noses at the other people (the masses) who never heard of the "new band" like they were some sort of musical morons who didn't know anything or weren't as knowledgable. It didn't matter if one was actually better than the other or not.

 
.And uhhh [no] on the q vs. w7 when they're the same size.SQ, maybe, but it is subjective.SPL. . . . //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
 

 

ported.gif


 

ownt. w7's might have plenty of excursion, and they get loud, but theres louder, cheaper. a lot cheaper. with a good warranty, good build quality, and good SQ. get off jl's nuts you silly ****, and take my sig quote out of yours. as said before, i know why jl asks the prices they do, and if you want to pay, cool. i dont. i was not talking used prices vs new. i compared used vs used and new vs new.

 

and who was talking RE? if RE's subs were half the price they are now, i'd be all about em. they're not, so i go with what is loud, cheap, and sounds good.

 
ported.gif

ownt. w7's might have plenty of excursion, and they get loud, but theres louder, cheaper. a lot cheaper. with a good warranty, good build quality, and good SQ. get off jl's nuts you silly ****, and take my sig quote out of yours. as said before, i know why jl asks the prices they do, and if you want to pay, cool. i dont. i was not talking used prices vs new. i compared used vs used and new vs new.

and who was talking RE? if RE's subs were half the price they are now, i'd be all about em. they're not, so i go with what is loud, cheap, and sounds good.
Do you have ANY sort of reading skills? How is a W7 owned? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif The ignorance here is strong.....what did JL fail at, their subs are not designed the be the loudest. There's also no Kicker L7 in that test, which IMO would have had awesome results in this category.
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif the Q gets +/- 1dB louder than the w7 and the BTL with double the power, does the same. The Q's highest SPL is a whopping 7/10 of a dB louder than the w7's. I fail to see any ownage, just a bunch of pretty impressive woofers.

 
Someone mentioned you get what you pay for. Well, that seems to be the exact topic in question in this case, and I don't think you can just pass it off as truth without a thorough examination of competing products in the market, either online or in local shops. Competition might have been light back 14 years ago, but today you can get a heck of a lot for your money. Brands like DD, Fi and RE to an extent make it hard to just look at JL's higher prices and agree "you get what you pay for".
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif DD is quite expensive the last time I went to their site and looked at their prices. Fi is a newer company and a forum boner, who has proven they build awesome subs, but not much more than that. RE from what some people say has sold out, to which I don't know many details.

Finally, since I was the OP here I feel I should get this clear too, since someone said "who are you to criticize peoples buying decisions"; I'm not the one doing the critic! I merely noticed several people, and from the response to this thread clearly there are a lot out there who think that, yes, JL Audio certainly has a spot in car audio but no, that spot is not at the top.
Who in that case is at the top? JL has done more for this industry than a few internet-based companies that have won a few SPL trophies. They have made CONSISTENTLY, high quality products since about 1992.

This is in contrast with a seemingly "accepted" image from somewhere in the car audio scene and spun either through clever marketing, word of mouth, or some combination of the two that JL products are somehow automatically superior, if nothing but for the two consonant letters printed on their products. Ask a relatively uneducated car audio enthusiast (aka n00b) and more than likely you'll hear "dub 7". Ignorance? Spidey senses? And perhaps most importantly, at least for the sake of this discussion, does his uneducated response bear any truth?
For your information, a n00b is not going to know about some weakly advertised internet audio companies that really haven't proven a whole lot. What's the surprise about this? A n00b on the other hand, probably HAS heard JL W7's and has quite the right to think it's one of the best woofers out, because it IS one of the top woofers out there.

 
lol i meant brokeback mountain man over here was owned for saying w7's are louder than q's, which is not the case in this particular test.

can you ****in read? jl makes good speakers. they make great speakers. there are louder, cheaper, that is a FACT. in my humble opinion, the cheaper speakers sound better as well. now shut the **** up...

 
lol i meant brokeback mountain man over here was owned for saying w7's are louder than q's, which is not the case in this particular test.
can you ****in read? jl makes good speakers. they make great speakers. there are louder, cheaper, that is a FACT. in my humble opinion, the cheaper speakers sound better as well. now shut the **** up...
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif Okay, man.
 
Impedence rise is the devil //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif
About quality.Let's get into that a little bit.I have seen MANY MANY BRAND NEW subs from quite a few manufacturers.Eclipse, JL, memphis, pioneer, etc. and I'm honestly pleased.

Then, when I see some of the new subs that come from RE I can't believe you people say they have the same quality control (or better). I see chunks of the magnet missing, scratched chrome motors, white shit on the spider and back of the cones (namely the RE series, it's the glue accellerator I believe), excess glue oozing (well, it's dried but you get the point) from some of the joints.I've seen subs where it feels like they ran their finger around the inside of the basket (where the surround is glued to the basket) and then wiped it on the inside of the surround.

There was even one where you pushed down on the cone and when it came back up it made a noise.It didn't take long to figure it out.Excess glue on surround.It was a "sticky" sound.As if you were to spill something sticky on a hard floor, then it dries and when you walk on it your shoe makes that sound.I can't describe it.

I don't ever recall seeing any of this from a decent mainstream manufacturer.

yup, had that on my sx, with piss poor packaging, which im sure they dont do anymore, especially on all the high end stuff, but still

 
Wow. Didn't take much reading to see there's a lot of "dumb ***" in this thread.
Yeah I was the same way in high school, I had the mindset that because products were more expensive, they weren't as "good" as some of hte internet brands that performed quite similiarly....it's like I was saying earlier in the thread, once you take a tour of JL's facility, you will love what they stand for and how they build their products if you are a true audio enthusiast.
 
Good lord those graphs are misleading. At the very least they don't tell you anything worthwhile. My grandfather always said "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure"..meaning...You could take those number and make any conclusion you wanted to.

What if you don't have room for a 2.2 CF box? Then none of those subs in that category will work for you. What if you don't have, or want the expense of a 2000 watt amplifier and the electrical system to back it up?

I'm not sure how you could compare a subwoofer in a 1.2 cf box with 350 watts to a subwoofer in a 2.2cf box and 1000 watts.

Going strictly by that graph the DIY audio sub seems the best suited for daily usage in car audio (ported) because it's within a few DB of the other subs with only one third the wattage and half the box size. But we're only looking at SPL numbers on a graph.

And thanks to whoever posted the sealed box results. It's nice to see the WHOLE story. Now if we could only graph sound quality we'd have something to compare.

 
Great 12 Challenge - Subjective Listening Tests:

First off, I'd like to thank Loyd Lowry, Chad Hicks, Sean Belanger, Nick Morgan, Ramos, Nick Lemons, Jake from Sundown Audio, and anyone else I missed...you guys really made this possible and I'm still amazed we were able to get done what we got done in such a short amount of time. Glad I could be a part of it! Let's get to the results.

Background:

Drivers were reviewed in no specific order...all testing was conducted in an E-150 full-size cargo van, with power being provided by a PG Tantrum 1200.1. Power was constant from 2 to 4 ohms, so 2 and 4 ohm DVC drivers received the same amount of power. The subwoofer preout voltage was not adjusted during testing to remove that as a variable. Listening material included the following:

Harry Gregson-Williams - Chronicles of Narnia OST - The Battle

Eva Cassidy - Wayfaring Stranger

Deanna Bogart - OK, I'll Play the Blues

Dream Theater - Stream of Consciousness

The Doors - Back Door Man

The Eagles - Hotel California (HFO)

IASCA demo disc - track 7

John Williams - Theme from Superman II

Henry Mancini - Theme from the Pink Panther

Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms

Chris Izaak - Baby Did a Bad Bad Thing

Individual Observations:

Note: due to time constraints, not all woofers that were tested for SPL were subjectively tested. I tried to get as many that most people would use for SQ or SQ-like applications.

Dayton Reference 12

* Lacked low end presence - weak on the lower registers. On Gregson-Williams’ “The Battle”, there’s a thundering drum passage @ 36 seconds into the track and again at about a minute; on a proper substage it should be resounding but controlled, and give the recording a sense of being in a large orchestral space...with the Dayton, it made some feeble noises and that was it. Disappointing.

* Transient response was acceptable, although not particularly impressive on very dynamic material

* The loss of a confident lower octave noticeable on tracks such as "Brothers in Arms".

Elemental Designs e12a.22

Did a respectable job on the test material, good handling of complex passages – its drawback is a lack of relative output compared to some of the other woofers on very low subbass, such as the 16Hz infrasound in Williams’ Superman II score.

Rainbow Vanadium

One of the (many) things I enjoyed about this woofer was its "punchiness"; on upright bass notes it had a strong "pluck" from the instrument, and it wasn't overbearing at all to the front stage. Handled double bass with aplomb. Its one shortcoming, if it had one, was relatively low output compared to "beefier" drivers such as the Mag D2 or W6v2. However, for a pure SQ application it'd be hard to go wrong here. It’s also a very visually appealing speaker with excellent build quality.

Rainbow Profi 12

Not quite as adept as the Vanadium for LFE, but the Profi put up quite a fight. Kickdrums were solid and well-defined, but once again, if you have a lot of power on tap for your substage, these might not be the drivers to choose.

Aura Sound MR 12.4

From a cosmetic standpoint, probably the best-looking driver all weekend – if not the most unique. But it's not all looks - this thing came to play. I played the rapid double bass of "Stream of Consciousness", and it just laughed, begged for more. The kettle drums of "The Battle" were deafening, but never out of place. I found myself just enjoying the music, instead of nitpicking over the driver's mistakes...because there weren't any! I'm really hard-pressed to find any faults with this woofer sonically - the price is the only drawback

Soundsplinter RL-P

Honestly, I was a little disappointed with the RL-p. On "Wayfaring Stranger", the bass line was "lazy", for lack of a better term - it seemed to pick and choose the notes it wanted to play, and the results weren't pleasing. "The Battle" lacked command on the bottom octave, sounding a lot like the weak LFE of the Dayton Reference.

Fi Audio Q12

The Fi wasn't as punchy as the Aura or Rainbows with fast kickdrums, but it wasn't sloppy either. Unlike the RL-p, it had much better low end extension, and you could tell it was really reaching down into those low notes to fill out the music. For anyone that thinks the Q and the Mag D2 are the same driver, you obviously haven't listened to both of them side by side The Q is a good driver, don't get me wrong - but the Mag simply brings more of the music out. The price differential might have something to do with it, though

Orion XTR3

Nothing really remarkable about this speaker...boomy and unrefined on the low end, and couldn't keep up with fast transients well. Avoid for SQ use.

Pioneer Premier 2000SPL

This woofer struck me as an SPL-based driver that just happens to sound decent. While it commanded the low drums in orchestral pieces, the top end was sloppy and unimpressive - stand up bass suffered as the timbre just wasn't quite there. But it didn't hold back when called upon to reproduce the 16Hz rumble in the finale of "Superman II" - a track that paralyzed other woofers. Just don't have your LP crossover set too high.

Durabrand 12

For $40, this one sucked. I think I heard two distinct notes out of it, and that was that...it died in SPL testing with 50 watts after I was done with it. Even the Q Power we tested previously put up more of a fight.

DIYMA 12

From DIY Mobile Audio, I was expecting more. The cone was already dented before testing even started, just an omen of the build quality problems this driver had during the weekend. I never felt "right" with this - it seemed like it was missing the fundamental notes, like it was "glossing over" complex bass lines. It wasn't overbearing or difficult to blend with the front stage, but it wasn't very musical either. And by the end of the test, it looked like it got beat up pretty badly - all in the course of 48 hours. Durability is not this speaker's forte, and neither is sounding particularly good.

Resonant Engineering SR 12

Just an all-around good performer - not quite as sonically "quick" as the Aura/Rainbows, nor as deep or commanding as the 2000SPL, but not lacking in either of those departments either. But with RE's move to dealer sales, the price of this woofer is not competitive compared to offerings from other companies.

JL W6v2

Say what you want about CA&E reviewers being idiots (and after reading their "review" of the SI Mag D2, I'm not sure idiot is a strong enough word), but Tom Nousaine was right - this is a **** fine woofer at any cost. It didn't do any one thing perfectly, but it did everything excellently. The timbre and musicality of a single kickdrum was dead-on, as well as the thundering gut-wrenching shake of large orchestral drums. It was just a fun driver to listen to...I even strayed a little from my designated test material to play some KMFDM and Junkie XL, and it performed admirably. Put this in a low-tuned ported enclosure, give it power, and you can't go wrong.

Crystal COMPX 12

* Lagged on the fast transients of "Stream of Consciousness"

* Did have a powerful low end, but overall not a driver suited for SQ applications

Mass Destruction Sidewinder

Sonically, very similar to the Orion XTR 3 - a sloppy, one or two-noted speaker that's better suited for street beating than SQ reference material. This was the second time I had heard the MD Sidewinder, and I wasn't impressed for musicality.

db Drive PLW12D2

Notes that should have been tight and clearly defined, weren't on this speaker. Mancini's "Pink Panther" theme has two distinct notes in the introduction, one higher and one lower - on a good system these have a very defined boundary in which they need to be placed. On this driver, like the MD Sidewinder and even RL-p to some degree, the notes "bled over" those limits and sounded bloated.

Funkin Audio MothaFunkin 12

It may be able to handle four strapped Sundown SAZ-1500D's, but I'd avoid this driver unless rap is part of your daily playlist. Distinct notes were slurred together, and it was very localizable in the soundstage. I did appreciate the terminal setup, especially for a DVC driver - there are four sets of terminals, so each coil gets two spring-loaded posts per lead.

Oz Audio ME

The little cousin to the P (which had problems of its own during SPL testing), the Me was a competent driver in the subjective tests, with LFE to spare. Very good sense of pace and timing, with a mastery of all kinds of instruments from the guitar of "Back Door Man" to kicks to kettle drums. Recommended.

Stereo Integrity BM 12:

I was eagerly waiting to test this driver, and with Nick Lemons in the passenger seat, we took it for a spin. I was impressed with its handling of complex material, it didn't shy away from material that humbled other woofers. Excellent transients, confident sub-30Hz response, and just melted right into the stage. If there's anything lacking from the Mag, it would be overall output - but for the cost, I'm not complaining one bit.

Stereo Integrity Mag D2

What can I say about this driver that hasn't already been said? One of the best offerings out there...although after this weekend I think there are a few strong competitors in its price range The reason why I chose the Aura over it had to do with tonal quality – I just felt that the Aura was a more natural-sounding driver, but it was a really close call.

Top choices:

1. Aura Sound MR 12.4

2. Stereo Integrity Magnum D2

3. Rainbow Vanadium

4. JL W6v2

5. Stereo Integrity BM/Fi Q – hard to pick a clear favorite here

Honorable mention goes to the Rainbow Profi.

That's all, folks! Remember, all of this is subjective and it's just in my very humble and sometimes idiotic opinion. YMMV, offer not valid in all 50 states, void where prohibited, do not remove label under penalty of law, etc, etc...

~ Jim

 
I love hearing all these people talk about JL being "overpriced".It really makes me //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
Here's a news flash.They may or may not be "overpriced" but people are willing to pay for it.So, if you could make a lot of money, would you?Yes, you'd be cashing in on every penny you can make. THEY ARE A BUSINESS! They sell products, they make money.You also have to consider, they have a lot more than 3 people working for them.Bigger facility, more advertising, custom tooling, more employees, and they offer a VERY wide selection of subs. amps, and speakers.Not to mention they have their home audio products now. All of this costs MONEY. Of course they have to have higher prices, or they'd go bankrupt. Point is, they have no problem moving their product at the current prices, so they will stay there.For whatever reason, if people are buying for the JL name or they truly like the product.

Comparing JL to "y" internet brand is like comparing a huge, fancy resturant that offers many types of food to a little resturant on the corner with bars in the windows that doesn't have many offerings.Yes, the cheapy on the corner will be of course, cheaper.Yeah, the food might be better for the price.But that is their main focus.They also have less employees, lower food costs, and less rent/utilities.This does not mean the large resturant will not/should not get any business.People pay for what they want.

So, kwitcher*****en and either fork up the cash to buy JL products, or stop bashing them because you can't afford them.No I'm not a JL fanboy, but you have to look at both sides here.
I Agree ^. You also forgot that they have to pay Funk Master Flex ( Well know DJ in NY hot 97.1 FM) for all the promotion. I agree JL is not the best, but for those who dont wanna take the chance with an unknown company, JL is a sure shot.

I just bought a 1000/1 and a 450/4 and It hurt me when I forked out the cash, but I know I have some good equiptment. Next on my list is 1 set of Focal K2P!//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/naughty.gif.94359f346c0f1259df8038d60b41863e.gif

 
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