quick question

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

I get slightly agitated about ignorance being spread, but no I don't loose my cool easily. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Vague....no, I fell I'm being pretty descriptive given the circumstance. I'm giving you leads to peruse for your own edification since I don't have the time to write out an entire book for you when there's plenty of material out there.

Generic...yes What would crunching numbers and throwing them at you accomplish when you can't even get your head around basic concepts.

i think i just descried in laymans terms which you only stated to as laws. sure the laws are alot more in depth then what i stated yet they are related directly to what you claimed i did not know.

An electron has a finite amount of charge. -1.60217662 × 10^-19 Coulombs to be close to exact. Any electron you run across will have that amount of charge. It doesn't change; same with its mass. A proton has the same amount of charge except the opposite sign so I don't know wtf you're talking about. It sounds like psychoactive drug inspired garbage....Induction is a vague term to use. Are you talking about logic? Induced current? Induced magnetic field, induced coma? (lol jk on the coma).

i never mention anything about varing election change only that voltage is the potentual difference sort of like the driving force/pressure behind the electric charge. i gave you too much credit. your tring to pick apart what im saying when you clearly understand what i mean. my fault as i should have been more techinal but i try to put things in terms anyone can understand which is why i mentioned it because you just naming off laws and stating sherr techical fact like you quoted a site of picked up a physics book. i chose to simplyfily it.

Hold up a sec whats a force if not some interaction that that results in a push or pull? You're contradicting yourself again.

force is not nesically push or pull. in this case admittling its not excatly the corect term its better described as pressure. when i stated it i was thinking as in the induction of a charge VIA and extermal magnetic field and the drive behind the current flow. its more of a REACTION than a actual force..

Voltage is not a force. since you insist upon arguing semantics about various topics on everything else. Its a potential difference. You're sitting there saying electron flow and then point out I'm wrong about the flow of electrons? (I think that's what you mean by electrion flow?) You're contradicting yourself again.

like i said eariler. you said push when its not correct. what i meant by the FORCE is the pressure or potentual difference. i said it this way to simply the understand of how voltage levels affect ampicity. your acting like the media using my words out of context.

That's exactly what I said about a speaker. Current=amps (or Coulombs per second) hey wait didn't we see coulomb earlier in this post? It's the amount of charge on something... say maybe an electron?!?

have you even read up on teslas "wireless electricty" and how it works? i dont get what your saying here. i comperhand the subject but im not sure why you mention it?

Lorentz force requires a moving charge. Charge itself isn't some magical entity; there are charge carriers ie electrons & protons

this is a direct quote from eariler.

" lorenze force is simply put is the effect on a charge for example of the voice coil reacting to the external EM of the permant magnet field and how it afftect said charge" if you read closely again its exactly what i said it was. you pass power through the coil that coil reacts to the permant magnetic field. DUH

I'm not quoting a website at all. It's all from the knowledge I've gained from reading, tinkering, and then applying. I'm flattered that you think I just ripped it off a website though:blush: I've already cut up your food for you; don't expect for me to chew it as well. Even if I explained the physical ramification of a cross product and walked through an entire derivation would it even help you or most people? No, because in this case OP and most other car audio peeps will be fine if they don't follow NEC code when wiring their subs. They don't need to know NEC code nor do they need to know the physics of E&M. I would rather not derail this thread any further with our bickering. If you want to have additional discourse please start a thread/create posts giving terrible information that I can trash or PM me. [/quoteim really glad they have knowledgable people like you here. its good to know and i think you. its nice to see people help and actually have a understanding as to what they are talking about. i just recommend you stay aways from electrical unless of course you come to the conclusion that the standars set are set for a reason.

 

[Boomin_tahoe 5,000+ posts]

Op....using OFC 12 gauge speaker wire, or even 14 and 16 gauge should be ok. Or...you can always double up on the 16 gauge if you feel the need/want to.

Using 8 gauge speaker wire isn't necessary unless you running 1000's of watts to subs.

I've ran 12 gauge to my subs for 8 years straight...n/p.

papermaker is blowing this outta proportion....your over thinking it.

 

[The_Quiet_One 10+ year member]

i think i just descried in laymans terms which you only stated to as laws. sure the laws are alot more in depth then what i stated yet they are related directly to what you claimed i did not know.

i never mention anything about varing election change only that voltage is the potentual difference sort of like the driving force/pressure behind the electric charge. i gave you too much credit. your tring to pick apart what im saying when you clearly understand what i mean. my fault as i should have been more techinal but i try to put things in terms anyone can understand which is why i mentioned it because you just naming off laws and stating sherr techical fact like you quoted a site of picked up a physics book. i chose to simplyfily it.

force is not nesically push or pull. in this case admittling its not excatly the corect term its better described as pressure. when i stated it i was thinking as in the induction of a charge VIA and extermal magnetic field and the drive behind the current flow. its more of a REACTION than a actual force..

like i said eariler. you said push when its not correct. what i meant by the FORCE is the pressure or potentual difference. i said it this way to simply the understand of how voltage levels affect ampicity. your acting like the media using my words out of context.

have you even read up on teslas "wireless electricty" and how it works? i dont get what your saying here. i comperhand the subject but im not sure why you mention it?

this is a direct quote from eariler.

" lorenze force is simply put is the effect on a charge for example of the voice coil reacting to the external EM of the permant magnet field and how it afftect said charge" if you read closely again its exactly what i said it was. you pass power through the coil that coil reacts to the permant magnetic field. DUH

I'm not quoting a website at all. It's all from the knowledge I've gained from reading, tinkering, and then applying. I'm flattered that you think I just ripped it off a website though:blush: I've already cut up your food for you; don't expect for me to chew it as well. Even if I explained the physical ramification of a cross product and walked through an entire derivation would it even help you or most people? No, because in this case OP and most other car audio peeps will be fine if they don't follow NEC code when wiring their subs. They don't need to know NEC code nor do they need to know the physics of E&M. I would rather not derail this thread any further with our bickering. If you want to have additional discourse please start a thread/create posts giving terrible information that I can trash or PM me. [/quoteim really glad they have knowledgable people like you here. its good to know and i think you. its nice to see people help and actually have a understanding as to what they are talking about. i just recommend you stay aways from electrical unless of course you come to the conclusion that the standars set are set for a reason.

I really don't know what you're trying to say most of the time tbh. If you do know what you're talking about then its lost in your terrible spelling, grammar, and incorrect diction. Your layman's terms will only end up in additional confusion. By all accounts I think you should stick with following NEC codes on your job. It's very easy to remember and much more difficult to fully explain concepts. If I was building a house or dealing with sustained currents I would be more in line with your acclaimed codes, but for car audio with with dynamic bursts of AC signal....then it's not going to need NEC codes for most applications.

The fact of the matter is it II would bet you get most of your info from about.com or history channel and that's why many of your statements don't make any sense. I work with E&M a lot in embedded systems and knowing the theory behind things like FPGAs or sensor networks is part of day to day job. BUt you have a respite for a few day as I won't have internet at the new house until early next week. Argue with you later amigo. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

im not arguing. i provided factual evidance you can prove or disprove. yet with all your knowledge you have yet to do so.

current carring and resistance doesnt change with time. wethier its a short duration or it is a contunious duty cycle. the fact remains your going to get losses in the signal. no ifs and or buts about it. how much of a loss is up to you..

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Op....using OFC 12 gauge speaker wire, or even 14 and 16 gauge should be ok. Or...you can always double up on the 16 gauge if you feel the need/want to.
Using 8 gauge speaker wire isn't necessary unless you running 1000's of watts to subs.

I've ran 12 gauge to my subs for 8 years straight...n/p.

papermaker is blowing this outta proportion....your over thinking it.

as an lisenced electrician ive done this alot. im not blowing anything out of proportion. you idoits refuse to look at the facts.

in this situation if he was to run one 12ga per woofer fine its not that much power anyways but you have to know the facts.

again im gonna do the math so we can find hte approiate wire for the application.

1600-RMS so on a contunious cycle @ 1 ohm that is 40 amps. lets say its 20 amps for impedance rise to 2 ohm. the piramary conductor should be 12ga. there is NO ARGUING with this. now the dynamic power is 2400. and i dont want no BULLSHIT arguing look at hte test that was done. the amp did 2400 ON MUSIC. thats 25 amps. again Id use 12 ga for the LOAD..

if you where to use 16 ga PER COIL that would be fine.

but its really senseless to get some cheap small speaker wire wheb you could use the larger wire. your probably going to up grade in the future anyways.

 

[Boomin_tahoe 5,000+ posts]

as an lisenced electrician ive done this alot. im not blowing anything out of proportion. you idoits refuse to look at the facts.
in this situation if he was to run one 12ga per woofer fine its not that much power anyways but you have to know the facts.

again im gonna do the math so we can find hte approiate wire for the application.

1600-RMS so on a contunious cycle @ 1 ohm that is 40 amps. lets say its 20 amps for impedance rise to 2 ohm. the piramary conductor should be 12ga. there is NO ARGUING with this. now the dynamic power is 2400. and i dont want no BULLSHIT arguing look at hte test that was done. the amp did 2400 ON MUSIC. thats 25 amps. again Id use 12 ga for the LOAD..

if you where to use 16 ga PER COIL that would be fine.

but its really senseless to get some cheap small speaker wire wheb you could use the larger wire. your probably going to up grade in the future anyways.

"We idiots" pretty much know what were doing...were all in this together. The fact that your an electrician is grreeat and all but to an extent. No need to mix in the 12 volt scene vs. the home/residential/company buildings, etc....totally different.

Again...your overthinking the whole situation. It's not like the OP is running massive amounts of subs.....then I can see the issues he would run into. Your trouble...I've already read the posts you made and people have fired back at ya.

 

[The Camry]

electricity isn't the flow of electrions. thats a YYUUUUUUUGGGEE misconseption it is charged particals that flows along electrions..https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity

Flow of electrons is current //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Flow of electrons is current //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

its more so how the enegry actually moves through tbe conductor.

im going to fibe some of teslas writings on wiresless electricty.

the theory was it traveled similar to light. its veen a long time. ut from what i remember it traveled along/through matter in a similar fashion.

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

"We idiots" pretty much know what were doing...were all in this together. The fact that your an electrician is grreeat and all but to an extent. No need to mix in the 12 volt scene vs. the home/residential/company buildings, etc....totally different.
Again...your overthinking the whole situation. It's not like the OP is running massive amounts of subs.....then I can see the issues he would run into. Your trouble...I've already read the posts you made and people have fired back at ya.

again. your wrong. the nec code covers 12 and 24 and 48 volt systems.

it covers everthing from boats to highly advanced drilling rigs.

they are esscenutally the same in nature..

yall keep saying it doesnt apply but it does. its the same thing.

power consumption by a speaker or lights or a electric motor. nothing is different.

if you cant understand that dont recommend anything because you dont have the knowladgr to do so..

ive showed everone the math. you can look this **** up!

its unbelieveable you idoits cannot phathom tbis!

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

NEC is great and all... I use it every day, but car audio wiring and terminations don't conform to the standards NEC expects.

Maybe if you use 60 deg C. Columns and listed welding cables, you can apply one of the tables in NEC. Even then, none of the car audio hardware is listed for 60 deg C.

Rich V.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

In addition, you need to apply the thermal derating values in the tables because the ambient temperature in a car is much higher. I would de-rate based on 100 deg. F ambient.

Rich V.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

again. your wrong. the nec code covers 12 and 24 and 48 volt systems.it covers everthing from boats to highly advanced drilling rigs.

they are esscenutally the same in nature..

yall keep saying it doesnt apply but it does. its the same thing.

power consumption by a speaker or lights or a electric motor. nothing is different.

if you cant understand that dont recommend anything because you dont have the knowladgr to do so..

ive showed everone the math. you can look this **** up!

its unbelieveable you idoits cannot phathom tbis!

Duty cycle is different between those loads. NEC calls it Load Factor. LF plays a huge role in ampacity, along with temperature. Both are very different from building lighting loads.

Intermittent compressor loads in an unconditioned mechanical room are the closest thing I see to audio loads. But applying NEC is challenging since nothing in car audio is UL Listed at 60 deg. C. or 75 deg. C.

Rich V.

 

[The_Dealer]

I skipped over alot, but just wanted to throw this out there. A guy I built a box for called me to see if I could come figure out why his sub wasn't playing anymore. Here's what the problem was. The amp was an sq2200@2ohm.



Sent from my Motorola 2950 Special Edition 3w

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Duty cycle is different between those loads. NEC calls it Load Factor. LF plays a huge role in ampacity, along with temperature. Both are very different from building lighting loads.
Intermittent compressor loads in an unconditioned mechanical room are the closest thing I see to audio loads. But applying NEC is challenging since nothing in car audio is UL Listed at 60 deg. C. or 75 deg. C.

Rich V.

we use a PF of .9 or .8 the power factor is going to be .95 give or take.. but hte power factor isn't corrected in the amperage ratings.. the NEC code typicall rates there amperage ratings with a 75C and at 90 degrees ambient tempature. glad you pointed that out though becasue it can be a factor..

 

[Papermaker85 5,000+ posts]

Duty cycle is different between those loads. NEC calls it Load Factor. LF plays a huge role in ampacity, along with temperature. Both are very different from building lighting loads.
Intermittent compressor loads in an unconditioned mechanical room are the closest thing I see to audio loads. But applying NEC is challenging since nothing in car audio is UL Listed at 60 deg. C. or 75 deg. C.

Rich V.

actually its being incresing inport to have a high power factor and a clean signal since the procesing systems(typicall isolated but still the power in coming from the same generator) we use power analizers as well.

music is more dynamic as oppsed to say a pipleline pump but something like say as stated a compressor load it is more of a dynamics load. ive sennn the kick on for 2 mintues kick off a minture later kick on.

still none the less i brung these conditions out because its a good place to start and if you can use ohms law to get an estimation of the wire thats accpetible.

another condition you will see suchs loads are computers and servers(all off short and on alot of equipment now Also another device that would be really similar are varible frequency drives. they use PWM similar to a class D amps. they are used in applitaction suckh as GPS nagivation systems for drill alignment. they keey he rig within 3 feet of the hole.

they do this but useing huge electric driver pumps and props to not only maain position but to stablize the rigs yaw and pitch. also the will pump water in and out of the legs(these rigs actually FLOAT) and its all done percisely and very fast.. these are control based applications that are dynaimc loads.