ngsm13 5,000+ posts
BSEE
NO...
Renee,
...Apparently you just haven't heard a proper front stage.
nG
Renee,
...Apparently you just haven't heard a proper front stage.
nG
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ngsm13
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/uhoh.gif.c07307dd22ee7e63e22fc8e9c614d1fd.gif
Ahh, I like how the person who likes rear fill wants to talk about audiophile recordings... Anway, what you seem to be missing is that the natural echos and ambience are recorded into the cd, again, in 2.1. The echos across the hall are already in the cd. Having that come from behind you isnt' helping, even if it somehow did, your still missing the fact that all the other sounds that ARE supposed to be only coming from the front no longer are. You have a confused sound stage with no real depth or imaging cues anymore. Nothing you can say can change the fact that music is recorded in 2.1. There is no front or back differentiation on the cd Therefore, to reproduce it as intended, you need 2 channels, just in front, adding more WILL make it incorrect. As far as "natural sounding", if having your singers appear to be singing as if god himself was talking to from the heavens (no spatial cues), then yes, rear fill is totally natural. Sounds dont' have sources, they appear from all around!!
The article from termpro is a joke. Install rear speakers and fade them back until the music sound "full". If your music doesnt' sound full without rears you have other issues. Show me a competitor using rear fill in IASCA that still competes with that car, they dont' really exist anymore. Clark pulled it off once, but that was a while back. Just about the time people really began to get a good sounstage in a car, by todays standards I doubt the car sounded that good, many that heard it have felt this way. Don't come off as some sort of SQ guru, because guess what, your not. There are SQ fans on this forum, many quite a bit more knowledgeable than yourself.
If you like rear fill, that's fine. However, SQ isn't subjective, your system wont' be setup for a proper soundstage in terms of stereo imaging, no way around it....
PS. I wonder how headphones do such an amazing job of giving depth cues when there's NO space between the speaker and your ear! After all the only thing it has to reverb in is you ear canal, a far cry from going across a long concert hall before entering your ear. And yet, with only 2 speakers to the sides of you head, you can reproduce a sounstage wider than the speakers themselves with all spacial cues present, as well as low level details due to the inherent lack of outside noise.... hmm.....
according to you, why am I when you just stated you what is so hard to get?... rear "ambience" is an [attenuated] reflected sound with natural delay (read:echo) --and the crossover points that squeek was talking about, is naturally created in said returning sound wave, (in the real-life) hence the natural attenuation you acheive in the vehicle, with crossover points and delays.
--
but they hear three dimensionally thank you to reverberated sounds...try this-- cup your hands and put them behind your ears so you are getting sounds from the front of you only...sounds different huh? wonder why...............????? This is really basic acoustics my friends.
(edit) in my effort to share, here is a VERY interesting read from TermPro about adding rear-fill. by Wayne Harris
http://www.termpro.com/articles/rearfill.html
and Richard Clark (about directed and reflected sounds): http://www.monstercable.com/mpc/stable/tech/A2507_The_Energy_Time_Curve.pdf
and some IASCA competitor just like you or I: http://www.alientech.net/nbinfo/stereo.html
Have you EVER been to an acoustic/un-amplified concert?
What are your musical interests...what "other"/variety of genre's do you listen to? Just curious...
I am not saying you should not image your front soundstage first...that's a gimme...duh.... but to take it a step further, I feel the necessity to tune a rear stage sound also...for me it Completes the quality/realism of the music if done properly... and re-creates the sound I like--so it doesnt just sound like a really loud stereo in a car/truck.
why does this become a "renee is wrong thread" because I have one opinion about sound, or how I like it to sound based on my experiences and personal taste? (and I am NOT the only one that prefers this "natural" sound) Maybe the Bass monsters, that it seems 3/4 of the members of this forum build/listen to, has damaged your hearing so much you have no clue what a true soundstage is. Maybe you have never had the pleasurable experience of a good live sound? I'm just guessing [and asking] here.
Or, Is it because I don't buy into your way of thinking and I have a mind of my own? anyone remember the (edit) 1986 Buick Grand National, that Richard Clark built with SpeakerWorks in Orange, CA. back in the early 90's (actually-'88-91 is when it competed) and how realisticly sounding it was because of the magical black box that he built? .....that ended up being a homemade sound delay/crossover/attenuating device? How can you say pioneers of the industry are wrong???...the very SAME guys (Richard Clark, Wayne Harris, David Rivera, Alma Gates, Isaac Goren....and the list goes on....) that developed the technology you enjoy today in your SPL monsters--- and the rare (in here) sq fans vehicle.
and yes, I like to talk/type a lot...it pisses you "boys" off that cant read more than one or two sentences.
Ahh, I like how the person who likes rear fill wants to talk about audiophile recordings... Anway, what you seem to be missing is that the natural echos and ambience are recorded into the cd, again, in 2.1. The echos across the hall are already in the cd. Having that come from behind you isnt' helping, even if it somehow did, your still missing the fact that all the other sounds that ARE supposed to be only coming from the front no longer are. You have a confused sound stage with no real depth or imaging cues anymore. Nothing you can say can change the fact that music is recorded in 2.1. There is no front or back differentiation on the cd Therefore, to reproduce it as intended, you need 2 channels, just in front, adding more WILL make it incorrect. As far as "natural sounding", if having your singers appear to be singing as if god himself was talking to from the heavens (no spatial cues), then yes, rear fill is totally natural. Sounds dont' have sources, they appear from all around!!
The article from termpro is a joke. Install rear speakers and fade them back until the music sound "full". If your music doesnt' sound full without rears you have other issues. Show me a competitor using rear fill in IASCA that still competes with that car, they dont' really exist anymore. Clark pulled it off once, but that was a while back. Just about the time people really began to get a good sounstage in a car, by todays standards I doubt the car sounded that good, many that heard it have felt this way. Don't come off as some sort of SQ guru, because guess what, your not. There are SQ fans on this forum, many quite a bit more knowledgeable than yourself.
If you like rear fill, that's fine. However, SQ isn't subjective, your system wont' be setup for a proper soundstage in terms of stereo imaging, no way around it....
PS. I wonder how headphones do such an amazing job of giving depth cues when there's NO space between the speaker and your ear! After all the only thing it has to reverb in is you ear canal, a far cry from going across a long concert hall before entering your ear. And yet, with only 2 speakers to the sides of you head, you can reproduce a sounstage wider than the speakers themselves with all spacial cues present, as well as low level details due to the inherent lack of outside noise.... hmm.....
Suomi 10+ year member
clutch pedal required
CDs are recorded in 2.0, not 2.1. The .1 refers to a channel encoded specifically for a subwoofer. But CDs are just uncompressed sound (AIFF) files which include nothing more than left and right channels. It doesn't change the point you are trying to make with two speaker and two channels of recorded audio, but the 2.1 part is incorrect.
reneeb7363 10+ year member
She-Nay-Nay
well then... I guess I am here to be your personal irritant... since you are always right and I am wrong... let's just agree to disagree on this one...
but, before you go off ...again...explain these winners, all used rear fill:
(just a FEW of the MANY examples)
"The CDT AUDIO YEAR 2002 DODGE RAM EUROSPORT INSTALL" Best Sounding Show Vehicle http://www.cdtaudio.com/dodgeram.htm
Petsche’s 2002 Corvette: http://www.maxxsonics.com/teammaxxsonics/news_2006SpringBreakWin.html
1994 Toyota Supra Turbo (Install 97-99) and Displayed at SEMA in Vegas in 2000.
http://www.sound-in-motion.com/installs/sim_supra.htm
WhyTF have you got to bust my chops because I simply don't comply with your SPL Attitudes...??? Dayum!! At 145+ Db you are trying to tell me that soundstage matters? LOL! Guess what? Some of us have been playing with car stereo since before you were born! Most of us have gotten past the louder than loud stage and moved on to enjoy the finer qualities and nuances (well..trying to anyways). Not saying that you should or ever will. MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE is to be immersed in the sound, GOOD SOUND, (yes..what you hear in your headphones can be re-created properly with front and rear speakers..because the speakers in a car are NOT right in your ears), including adequate bass too, for a variety of music most of you would never listen to. (Mannheim, David Lanz, Any Classical, John Tesh, - the piano and other orchestral instruments are supposed to surround you-- look at any good venue's designed to take advantage of natural acoustics- the dome reflects delayed sounds--the back of the seating area is as high as or above the top of the dome to create reflection)
Rear-fill is exactly that, fill. No significant musical information comes from the rear, with proper installation! { http://www.dls.se/pdf/soundhandbook05.pdf -- CTRL F and search for rear fill there is a good explanation and a simple schematic for creating a passive bandpass filter. for installing rear fill (and center channels) properly.}
There are people that DO LIKE more than just ridiculously loud bass. I never claimed to be an expert! I did say you have to have a good front stage before adding rear fill. I did share some facts and insight... back up and try to act like the man you are supposed to be...please!
There is no right or wrong when you are talikng about adding rear fill or not...it is all in the persons preference...obviously it is not yours! The gentleman that started this thread was asking if he should add rear speakers or not..he didnt like the sound of his system when he faded out the rear speakers... Oh, and Wayne Harris is NOT a joke...
and I love you too! ...get a hense of sumor or sumpthin!
but, before you go off ...again...explain these winners, all used rear fill:
(just a FEW of the MANY examples)
"The CDT AUDIO YEAR 2002 DODGE RAM EUROSPORT INSTALL" Best Sounding Show Vehicle http://www.cdtaudio.com/dodgeram.htm
Petsche’s 2002 Corvette: http://www.maxxsonics.com/teammaxxsonics/news_2006SpringBreakWin.html
1994 Toyota Supra Turbo (Install 97-99) and Displayed at SEMA in Vegas in 2000.
http://www.sound-in-motion.com/installs/sim_supra.htm
WhyTF have you got to bust my chops because I simply don't comply with your SPL Attitudes...??? Dayum!! At 145+ Db you are trying to tell me that soundstage matters? LOL! Guess what? Some of us have been playing with car stereo since before you were born! Most of us have gotten past the louder than loud stage and moved on to enjoy the finer qualities and nuances (well..trying to anyways). Not saying that you should or ever will. MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE is to be immersed in the sound, GOOD SOUND, (yes..what you hear in your headphones can be re-created properly with front and rear speakers..because the speakers in a car are NOT right in your ears), including adequate bass too, for a variety of music most of you would never listen to. (Mannheim, David Lanz, Any Classical, John Tesh, - the piano and other orchestral instruments are supposed to surround you-- look at any good venue's designed to take advantage of natural acoustics- the dome reflects delayed sounds--the back of the seating area is as high as or above the top of the dome to create reflection)
Rear-fill is exactly that, fill. No significant musical information comes from the rear, with proper installation! { http://www.dls.se/pdf/soundhandbook05.pdf -- CTRL F and search for rear fill there is a good explanation and a simple schematic for creating a passive bandpass filter. for installing rear fill (and center channels) properly.}
There are people that DO LIKE more than just ridiculously loud bass. I never claimed to be an expert! I did say you have to have a good front stage before adding rear fill. I did share some facts and insight... back up and try to act like the man you are supposed to be...please!
There is no right or wrong when you are talikng about adding rear fill or not...it is all in the persons preference...obviously it is not yours! The gentleman that started this thread was asking if he should add rear speakers or not..he didnt like the sound of his system when he faded out the rear speakers... Oh, and Wayne Harris is NOT a joke...
and I love you too! ...get a hense of sumor or sumpthin!
mannyb18b
Banned
Is this true?
And just my .02 I think rear anything is only usefull in a 5.1 application.
Some of the best sounding systems I heard had only a front stage...
First off, I'm NOT an SPL guy, never have been. You started the "I like SQ I'm better than you"attitude not me, and it's unfounded. I'm not an SPL guy. My car has a $500 substage and over 2k upfront, you do the math. Loud bass isnt' my thing... Now, before I get too off topic. Even if you bandpass the rear channels to keep it from localaizing your still dealing with stereo information coming from behind you. Unless you can also decoralate the left and right, to get all CENTER info away from the rear, your going to hurt your center focus up front as well as your overall stage width. Werewolf has a post on it on ECA dealing with exactly what parts of human hearing cause this, I think, may have been another forum. Regardless, it makes sense if you think about it. But hey, what do I know, I'm an SPL head....//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
The argument against rear fill is simple. The music wasn't designed to have speaker behind you when it was being recorded. To add rears will just add information in places that wasn't supposed to be there. Simple enough? Whether you like it or not has no bearing, it's still nearly impossible to get right by todays high SQ standards and not worth the effort if you could. Very few cars that compete in SQ comps use rear fill, wanna call them SPL heads too?
So if you want "proper" rear fill
1.Decoralate L/R (few processors do this, maybe mod a home audio one?)
2.Time delay
3.bandpass
4.Tune, alot.
Then again, if we do all that, what was the point? If we are only using low frequency info in the rear, the reflection argument stops working. Once you get low enough, the sound isn't localizable anyway, relfections will just have a time delay, you wont' hear anything from behind you due to low frequncies and it won't have time difference from the original wave like an echo does, including all the reflected soud you'd have at the venue of the higher frequencies which no longer exist, so it's still very incorrect? The echo effect gets ruined. You have no localization behind you like a echo can cause, nor is delayed from the original wave.
PS.he was right about the 2.1 thing, someone else brought it up and I used it without thinking about it, my bad.
reneeb7363 10+ year member
She-Nay-Nay
TO THE OP... regardless of the mindless arguments and my 'apparent' in-ability to convey my thoughts and preferences- if you feel that rear fill is necissary (as do I in my application) in your vehicle to prevent that "hole" in your system-- and you wish to keep the rear speakers... make sure of just a few PROVEN things:
1) crossover from/in the 200Hz to 3kHz region
2) Make sure the signal to the speakers is mono--you DON't want stereo sound coming from the rear...you can easily accomplish this with a inexpensive bridgeable powered amplifier with mono/stereo switching.
3) it's not necissary to use co-axial speakers or component sets because the sound you want coming from the rear of your vehicle will not necessitate anything above what would be considered mid-range frequencies.
4)- MAKE SURE your front stage is adequatly imaged *FIRST*! Tweeters are aimed properly, midrange and mid bass sounds full and "up front" Stereo imaging should place the vocals right about in the mid- center of the dash. Instruments location should be readily identifiable (depending on the quality of recording and number of microphones used in the recording process) After doing this properly or with help from a seasoned veteran..you may decide you don't need rear fill after all. It's subjective.
Edit: if you require the added depth, (for the concert hall effect) thats where you would add a small (microseconds) delay to the signal.
There are a thousand opinions on this, and every single person will probably tell you something different that worked for them. But, NOT every car is acoustically the same--that's the fun of car stereo..every situation is unique...size, shape, material and amount of upholstery, components, etc... you do what sounds best to you. Don't dis-regard anything someone may tell you...including what has been argued in your thread, instead, listen and use what you can to better your system. also--google the words "rear fill" and research it...like I said, there will be many opinions and ideas. Use what you can sir. Thank you for putting up with the nonsense.
hope all of our arguing and bickering didn't confuse this for you...some of the guys just hate me for having boobs AND an opinion! (LOL! That's a joke --you know who you are!)
1) crossover from/in the 200Hz to 3kHz region
2) Make sure the signal to the speakers is mono--you DON't want stereo sound coming from the rear...you can easily accomplish this with a inexpensive bridgeable powered amplifier with mono/stereo switching.
3) it's not necissary to use co-axial speakers or component sets because the sound you want coming from the rear of your vehicle will not necessitate anything above what would be considered mid-range frequencies.
4)- MAKE SURE your front stage is adequatly imaged *FIRST*! Tweeters are aimed properly, midrange and mid bass sounds full and "up front" Stereo imaging should place the vocals right about in the mid- center of the dash. Instruments location should be readily identifiable (depending on the quality of recording and number of microphones used in the recording process) After doing this properly or with help from a seasoned veteran..you may decide you don't need rear fill after all. It's subjective.
Edit: if you require the added depth, (for the concert hall effect) thats where you would add a small (microseconds) delay to the signal.
There are a thousand opinions on this, and every single person will probably tell you something different that worked for them. But, NOT every car is acoustically the same--that's the fun of car stereo..every situation is unique...size, shape, material and amount of upholstery, components, etc... you do what sounds best to you. Don't dis-regard anything someone may tell you...including what has been argued in your thread, instead, listen and use what you can to better your system. also--google the words "rear fill" and research it...like I said, there will be many opinions and ideas. Use what you can sir. Thank you for putting up with the nonsense.
hope all of our arguing and bickering didn't confuse this for you...some of the guys just hate me for having boobs AND an opinion! (LOL! That's a joke --you know who you are!)
I agree with Tempest;
To install rear speakers, and have them not affect the sound stage;
- All spatial cues must be filtered or the rear speakers must be crossed low enough to only output a non-sensitive spatial bandwidth (under approx 300hz).
** If the music has been spatially filtered, the output is being altered so it's really not a good choice.
-The rear speakers must be time delayed (proper reflection/reverberation output) and properly adjusted with regards to amplitude/FR.
To install rear speakers, and have them not affect the sound stage;
- All spatial cues must be filtered or the rear speakers must be crossed low enough to only output a non-sensitive spatial bandwidth (under approx 300hz).
** If the music has been spatially filtered, the output is being altered so it's really not a good choice.
-The rear speakers must be time delayed (proper reflection/reverberation output) and properly adjusted with regards to amplitude/FR.
I used to like rear fill, but now I have my gains almost all the way down for my rears, and the head unit faded almost all the way up to the front lol.
Guess I developed a hate for rear fill, and how other peoples cars sound now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif
Guess I developed a hate for rear fill, and how other peoples cars sound now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif
ngsm13 5,000+ posts
BSEE
Sigh.
nG
I luv ngsm13's post, straight and too the point!//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
ps/thread
ps/thread
reneeb7363 10+ year member
She-Nay-Nay
A quick review for you NG--- I prefaced EVERYTHING I wrote with the word "preference." In my vehicle I feel the same as the OP... and I LIKE the subdued sounds coming from my rear deck that enhance my front stage!
IT IS SUBJECTIVE--there are winning vehicles with and without rear-fill... some people like the effect it creates some don't. I do get it. I was entering competitions myself and with a friend when you were 4 years old.... I do understand the car industry added rear speakers as a way to envelope ALL passengers in the larger vehicles. (though they didnt do it correctly) You too were once learning all about how car audio worked... go back and look at your first threads--there was a lot of "please help" and "I need suggestions" and "what would you recomend" posts by you! Everyone takes a different path and has a different idea about what they like--it is STILL SUBJECTIVE! It certainly is NOT black or white...there is no right answer when it comes to a persons personal taste. because we don't agree with you does NOT mean we are wrong or "Dont get it!" Please step off your highhorse...you will find the pressure in your swollen head will reduce. (now...I will wait for the ban- I know you from reading your posts and I imagine you are fuming right now so go ahead...but FYI, I will dispute it!)
The starter of this thread said:
IT IS SUBJECTIVE--there are winning vehicles with and without rear-fill... some people like the effect it creates some don't. I do get it. I was entering competitions myself and with a friend when you were 4 years old.... I do understand the car industry added rear speakers as a way to envelope ALL passengers in the larger vehicles. (though they didnt do it correctly) You too were once learning all about how car audio worked... go back and look at your first threads--there was a lot of "please help" and "I need suggestions" and "what would you recomend" posts by you! Everyone takes a different path and has a different idea about what they like--it is STILL SUBJECTIVE! It certainly is NOT black or white...there is no right answer when it comes to a persons personal taste. because we don't agree with you does NOT mean we are wrong or "Dont get it!" Please step off your highhorse...you will find the pressure in your swollen head will reduce. (now...I will wait for the ban- I know you from reading your posts and I imagine you are fuming right now so go ahead...but FYI, I will dispute it!)
The starter of this thread said:
T3mpest...I am sorry it sounded like I was accusing you of being an SPL only fan...It is obvious you know what you are talking about and are pro active for front sound stage only. I can appreciate your knowledge and effort to educate/debate the necessity for rear fill. Thank you for your opposition..hopefully the young man trying to learn something from this will be able to make an educated decision based on the afore-mentioned discussion.
good enough for me, the only reason I got defensive was the SPL comments. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/peace.gif.2db28b618ed8d1964ebbe2f5021d2c39.gif
Megalomaniac 5,000+ posts
Mr.SQ
i always thought the car comapny"designers" add rear speakers for more bass.
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