Only Fronts Sound Better?

[reneeb7363 10+ year member]

ditto... pro rear fill...

any concert you go to... outside of a small club venue... is going to have natural rear ambience from the reflected sound wave (read: ECHO)... you don't have rear speakers in most large venue applications due to the fact the usually have a high powered wall or tower of speakers, including horns, that really "push" the volume out so it is still substantially loud to those unfortunate that are at the back of the stadium, hall, etc. What you do have is reflected signal, that, due to the nature of said echo, is time delayed a few milliseconds--again, it depends on the venue. If you are truly trying to get the BIG CONCERT sound then it is imperritive you include rear fill -- of course to efectively work it should be at a reduced volume and time delayed to create the realism. MOST people DONT take this into consideration and that's where the argument arises. If you are going to add rear "FILL"... do it right...or its senseless use of amplifier power that may be used better elsewhere.

...my $.02

p.s.... somewhere I have an old schematic for a time delay circuit (mono) so fo those of you that know how to draw a circuit and solder on a circuit board...I will create a thread as soon as I find the diagram...or, if someone knows where to find it on-line..please post (I have to go through my storage unit to find it....arrgghhhh!!)

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

ditto... pro rear fill... any concert you go to... outside of a small club venue... is going to have natural rear ambience from the reflected sound wave (read: ECHO)... you don't have rear speakers in most large venue applications due to the fact the usually have a high powered wall or tower of speakers, including horns, that really "push" the volume out so it is still substantially loud to those unfortunate that are at the back of the stadium, hall, etc. What you do have is reflected signal, that, due to the nature of said echo, is time delayed a few milliseconds--again, it depends on the venue. If you are truly trying to get the BIG CONCERT sound then it is imperritive you include rear fill -- of course to efectively work it should be at a reduced volume and time delayed to create the realism. MOST people DONT take this into consideration and that's where the argument arises. If you are going to add rear "FILL"... do it right...or its senseless use of amplifier power that may be used better elsewhere.

...my $.02

p.s.... somewhere I have an old schematic for a time delay circuit (mono) so fo those of you that know how to draw a circuit and solder on a circuit board...I will create a thread as soon as I find the diagram...or, if someone knows where to find it on-line..please post (I have to go through my storage unit to find it....arrgghhhh!!)

ahh, can no one read. A cd's purpose isn't to sound like a concert.... Concerts and nightclubs arent' good acoustic environments most of the time either. Music is recorded in 2 channels. To hear it as it's supposed to be, you use 2 speakers on each side of you, this isnt' hard. The CD creator knows how they wanted it to sound, placement of vocals, etc, and to get that sound out of your stereo, you need no more than 2 speakers! A left and a right channel, no left back, no right back, just left and right fronts, that's it! There is no argument here in terms of "how it's supposed to sound". Rear fill bastardizes the word stereo, no way around it.

Secondly, a car is a VERY reflective environment. Your getting alot more relections in a car than you would in concert, so that'a non-issue, even without rear fill.

If you want your car to sound like a concert, don't use rear fill. Well, if by concert you want a swirling echo of pure random noise, vs music, then yes, go ahead and use rear fill. If you'd like to be able to imagine the concert playing out in front of you, bass guitar in the right side of the stage near the back, singer dead center up front, etc, then don't use rear fill. That's how a concert actually is. Using 2 speakers allows you to reproduce the spacial dimensions of the recording, to be able to see where the instruments were at relative to one another when they were recorded. You wont' get that with rear fill.

 

[UndercoverPunk 5,000+ posts]

[No message]

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

Obviously you don't have a sufficient front stage then.

Only time I'd advocated rear fill is for someone who has passengers ALL the time in something like a HUGE suburban... or a WoodyWagon...

I had rear fill in my truck... and literally turned the power to them on and off... listening to see if I could hear a difference...couldn't at all, with my sufficient front stage. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Also, as stated... CD's are 2.1 Stereo. If you want rear fill... do a 5.1system and listen to SACD's or DVD-Audio.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

nG

 

[Thnking 10+ year member]

The problem with the concert or similar excuse for using rear fill is that the music is recorded in 2 channels. Time delayed cues and reverberated/reflected sounds are incorporated into the 2 channels. They are recorded to be output from these 2 channels (front to back). If you put rear speakers in, they are reproducing the same output as the front, which are supposed to contain front to back cues (along with all of the spatial cues). Now these spatial and front to back cues are being output from more than 2 point sources (front speakers and rear speakers), essentially changing the original sound stage.

The best way to reproduce stereo would be with 2 speakers, unfortunately 2 speakers can't handle the bandwidth reproduction so we use more. Rear fill should be avoided.

 

[UndercoverPunk 5,000+ posts]

The problem with the concert or similar excuse for using rear fill is that the music is recorded in 2 channels. Time delayed cues and reverberated/reflected sounds are incorporated into the 2 channels. They are recorded to be output from these 2 channels (front to back). If you put rear speakers in, they are reproducing the same output as the front, which are supposed to contain front to back cues (along with all of the spatial cues). Now these spatial and front to back cues are being output from more than 2 point sources (front speakers and rear speakers), essentially changing the original sound stage.
The best way to reproduce stereo would be with 2 speakers, unfortunately 2 speakers can't handle the bandwidth reproduction so we use more. Rear fill should be avoided.

aaaaaand...

[/thread]

 

[azbass 5,000+ posts]

you also do realize in a properly set up system you should be able to difinitvely say that the subs are in the rear right? the bass should surround you, like at a concert.
the problem with running rear fill is it doesnt sound as good, i would venture to say that if you got a TA and do some time alignment it would sound good, i dont doubt that. but who is going to really go thru all that to get a surround sound feel in there car, when you can do the front and it will sound great when properly done

most music out there sounds a tin better with just a front stage, as if you were in a concert, the object is to get that feeling like you are in a concert in your car.

lol. the objective is to get nice sound. some people like having a rear ambiant sound. some want full rear sound. some dont. there is NO set way how everybody wants music to play in their car. the car is the WORST place to set a good sounding system

 

[reneeb7363 10+ year member]

A persons hearing is subjective...what sounds good to you may/probably sounds like A$$ to someone else. You cant possibly say one way of sound reproduction is the BEST way --in ANY environment.

I can read...can you? what part of LARGE VENUE didn't you understand...and I do prefer to have the slight (reduced volume) delayed echo from the rear of my car...(because that is what I like) and yes, it is an reflective environment, albeit VERY POOR, for reflective sounds and other noisey anomolies (s?). BUT...the car is very small and does not create a time difference in the reverberated sounds, like the said concert hall.... and for reference, the 'concerts' I am referring to are jazz, new age, classical, and the occasional rock or country concert. The kind of music I listen to when I am concerned or want to hear sound QUALITY that "sounds like" I am at the concert.

I could care less about the 'ambience' (or most often lack there-of) in the urban music I listen to...that's not what it is produced for, or the reason most people listen to it.

quote by T3mpst: If you'd like to be able to imagine the concert playing out in front of you, bass guitar in the right side of the stage near the back, singer dead center up front, etc, then don't use rear fill. That's how a concert actually is. Using 2 speakers allows you to reproduce the spacial dimensions of the recording, to be able to see where the instruments were at relative to one another when they were recorded. You wont' get that with rear fill.

Rear ambience is sourced from the left and right channels on the stage...it is a mixed/delayed wave of the original sound returning to the "front stage," in a concert environment larger than your local night club.

There are a LOT of environmental ques recorded in music... next time you put those headphones on--listen to something that has the recorded/produced ambience...I recommend Mannheim Steamrollers Fresh Aire 4 -Dancing Flames...for starters. (just one of my favorites...But I would recomend ANY of Mannheims CD's--especially the new HDCD that he is re-mastering and releasing again) If your ears are truly trained so well...you WILL hear the depth, location, environment, delay, etc. of the music as it was recorded. Not very many of the current recordings on the market (ie: circa 1985-2000-ish) were very concerned at all with anything but L-R (basic stereo) configuration, but thankfully recording engineers today are aware of the different acoustical environments and the necissity for attention to the subtle nuances in the music that give it a "life-like" sound/feeling.

and just in case you missed it and want to rant and rave at me because I DONT like my music to sound the way you do yours...

HEARING IS SUBJECTIVE!!!!... it is up to the person that is listening to the music whether they wish to have rear speakers or not...I feel there is a hole in my listening environment without them. IMO!

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Everything I was going to state has already been mentioned. So I'll summarize;

A properly setup 2-channel stereo system with only front speakers (and a sub) should be able to reproduce the same acoustic "feeling" of the enviornment of the recording. From large concert hall to small sound room.

The primary soundstage should be projected infront of you, not "all around you".

Amplified concerts and clubs are not good examples of how a stereo system should sound. Your not recreating the concert itself (with the exception of things like room/enviornment..which can be done properly with front speakers)....but rather the stage. The individual instruments and vocals on the stage...not where the concert hall or club decided to place the speakers.

Most people who complain about it sounding worse without rearfill don't have an adequate or properly setup frontstage to begin with....hence the issue.

Others simply don't enjoy the sound of proper staging and imaging. To each their own. Though, as I've said before....IMNSHO most of the people who claim they don't enjoy it simply haven't truly experienced it yet. Can't like what you haven't heard.

Beyond the typical "I like my sound surrounding me excuse", there are those who claim a properly processed rear stage can help with stage height and center image. But as with everything opinionated in audio.....others disagree with that statement. And no, a "properly processed" rearstage isn't simply attenuating them.

 

[UndercoverPunk 5,000+ posts]

A persons hearing is subjective...what sounds good to you may/probably sounds like A$$ to someone else. You cant possibly say one way of sound reproduction is the BEST way --in ANY environment.
I can read...can you? what part of LARGE VENUE didn't you understand...and I do prefer to have the slight (reduced volume) delayed echo from the rear of my car...(because that is what I like) and yes, it is an reflective environment, albeit VERY POOR, for reflective sounds and other noisey anomolies (s?). BUT...the car is very small and does not create a time difference in the reverberated sounds, like the said concert hall.... and for reference, the 'concerts' I am referring to are jazz, new age, classical, and the occasional rock or country concert. The kind of music I listen to when I am concerned or want to hear sound QUALITY that "sounds like" I am at the concert.

I could care less about the 'ambience' (or most often lack there-of) in the urban music I listen to...that's not what it is produced for, or the reason most people listen to it.

Rear ambience is originally sourced from the left and right channels on the stage...it is a mixed/delayed wave of the original sound returning to the "front stage."

There are a LOT of environmental ques recorded in music... next time you put those headphones on--listen to something that has the recorded/produced ambience...I recommend Mannheim Steamrollers Fresh Aire 4 -Dancing Flames...for starters. (just one of my favorites) If your ears are truly trained so well...you WILL hear the depth, location, environment, delay, etc. of the music as it was recorded. Not very many of the current recordings on the market (ie: circa 1985-2000-ish) were very concerned at all with anything but L-R configuration, but thankfully recording engineers are aware of the different acoustical environments and the necissity for attention to the subtle nuances in the music that give it a "life-like" sound/feeling.

and just in case you missed it and want to rant and rave at me because I DONT like my music to sound the way you do yours...

HEARING IS SUBJECTIVE!!!!... it is up to the person that is listening to the music whether they wish to have rear speakers or not...I feel there is a hole in my listening environment without them. IMO!

You see, for me it's not the argument that what you like best in your car is most important to you... (I can agree with that part)

It's that you have no Idea what you're talking about for everything else you said. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

You do seem pretty good at talking a lot if that makes you feel any better. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Megalomaniac 5,000+ posts]

if you're goin to do rear fill, cross them over low atleast, you dont need to hear them screaming behind you

 

[reneeb7363 10+ year member]

You see, for me it's not the argument that what you like best in your car is most important to you... (I can agree with that part)
It's that you have no Idea what you're talking about for everything else you said. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

You do seem pretty good at talking a lot if that makes you feel any better. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

so physics has no relation to the car audio environment? Sound does not echo...? there you have it folks... no more questions please....

 

[UndercoverPunk 5,000+ posts]

so physics has no relation to the car audio environment? Sound does not echo...? there you have it folks... no more questions please....

You... just... don't... get... it...

I barely get it... but you... you're just wrong.

 

[Megalomaniac 5,000+ posts]

my ears face fowards not backwards //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

 

[reneeb7363 10+ year member]

according to you, why am I

"JUST WRONG"

when you just stated you

"barely get it?"

what is so hard to get?... rear "ambience" is an [attenuated] reflected sound with natural delay (read:echo) --and the crossover points that squeek was talking about, is naturally created in said returning sound wave, (in the real-life) hence the natural attenuation you acheive in the vehicle, with crossover points and delays.

my ears face fowards not backwards //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

--but they hear three dimensionally thank you to reverberated sounds...try this-- cup your hands and put them behind your ears so you are getting sounds from the front of you only...sounds different huh? wonder why...............????? This is really basic acoustics my friends.

(edit) in my effort to share, here is a VERY interesting read from TermPro about adding rear-fill. by Wayne Harris

http://www.termpro.com/articles/rearfill.html

and Richard Clark (about directed and reflected sounds): http://www.monstercable.com/mpc/stable/tech/A2507_The_Energy_Time_Curve.pdf

and some IASCA competitor just like you or I: http://www.alientech.net/nbinfo/stereo.html

Have you EVER been to an acoustic/un-amplified concert?

What are your musical interests...what "other"/variety of genre's do you listen to? Just curious...

I am not saying you should not image your front soundstage first...that's a gimme...duh.... but to take it a step further, I feel the necessity to tune a rear stage sound also...for me it Completes the quality/realism of the music if done properly... and re-creates the sound I like--so it doesnt just sound like a really loud stereo in a car/truck.

why does this become a "renee is wrong thread" because I have one opinion about sound, or how I like it to sound based on my experiences and personal taste? (and I am NOT the only one that prefers this "natural" sound) Maybe the Bass monsters, that it seems 3/4 of the members of this forum build/listen to, has damaged your hearing so much you have no clue what a true soundstage is. Maybe you have never had the pleasurable experience of a good live sound? I'm just guessing [and asking] here.

Or, Is it because I don't buy into your way of thinking and I have a mind of my own? anyone remember the (edit) 1986 Buick Grand National, that Richard Clark built with SpeakerWorks in Orange, CA. back in the early 90's (actually-'88-91 is when it competed) and how realisticly sounding it was because of the magical black box that he built? .....that ended up being a homemade sound delay/crossover/attenuating device? How can you say pioneers of the industry are wrong???...the very SAME guys (Richard Clark, Wayne Harris, David Rivera, Alma Gates, Isaac Goren....and the list goes on....) that developed the technology you enjoy today in your SPL monsters--- and the rare (in here) sq fans vehicle.

and yes, I like to talk/type a lot...it pisses you "boys" off that cant read more than one or two sentences.