One Day Wall... *pics inside*

Well you are correct just cause somebody well respected agrees doesn't mean 100 percent it is correct. But honestly there is a thread on there talking about it in great detail. and the sub does move considerably less in proportion to the extra wattage caused by clipping thus less cooling. Just like certain boxes greatly reduce thermal power handling due to lack of movement at certain tones so this could do the same thing.
here read these after this should lock thread cause we both have our beliefs

http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

http://audioforum.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/8/26576.html that is some pretty good reading there

No, two identical sub that should blow on 600 watts. same box clamp set both amps to do the same wattage RMS . but the smaller amp with everything cranked wide open including head unit (and measure THIS amp like that with the clamp meter and voltage to get true rms) then set the higher wattage amp to do the same power or within a few watts and see if they blow at the same rate. This isn't meant to be a test between a square wave and a pure clean signal so I don't need a scope. this is a test to see if wattage is the ONLY factor in a voice coil blowing. And this is a test that should do that. if they blow within close times we can count this as possibly little variances in build quality between the two identical speakers. if the fully clipped amp blows it in 10 seconds and the other amp takes 90. then it is pretty obvious the different movement of the cone can cause less cooling
Clamping and measuring the current and voltage then multiplying them is NOT going to give you the actual power and then when you clip the signal, that value won't be accurate at all either. But I'm not going to open that can of worms.

I agree with Devil Driver and that's as far as I'm going in this thread. If you choose to believe that the slight change in cone movement (no, it won't move like a square wave and "hang" like you may think it will -- that's just impossible) will greatly decrease power handling, I don't care anymore and you can keep spreading it around. It will only help spread the misunderstanding.

 
If you choose to believe that the slight change in cone movement (no, it won't move like a square wave and "hang" like you may think it will -- that's just impossible)
And the often considerable inductance of the subwoofer's voice coil makes it even more unlikely. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 
and "Immacomputer" why do you say that its impossible for the cone to "hang" if given a square wave signal?
You would need an infinite amount of acceleration to get the cone to stop on a dime and hold its position. There will be overshoot due to the limited acceleration and inertia of the moving mass.

Think about driving a car at a high rate of speed on a very hilly road with nice curves on the top and bottom. Now imagine that this hilly road has a very steep incline (almost like a flat wall) and then instantly breaks at almost 90* and heads flat. If you're driving your car fast enough to come over the crest, the car is going to ramp and fly above the corner of the crest. If gravity was greatly increased (gravity is acceleration), the car would have less and less overshoot. The same thing applies to the moving mass of the sub. You can't break physics.

 
You would need an infinite amount of acceleration to get the cone to stop on a dime and hold its position. There will be overshoot due to the limited acceleration and inertia of the moving mass.
Think about driving a car at a high rate of speed on a very hilly road with nice curves on the top and bottom. Now imagine that this hilly road has a very steep incline (almost like a flat wall) and then instantly breaks at almost 90* and heads flat. If you're driving your car fast enough to come over the crest, the car is going to ramp and fly above the corner of the crest. If gravity was greatly increased (gravity is acceleration), the car would have less and less overshoot. The same thing applies to the moving mass of the sub. You can't break physics.


alright, i was sitting idley by and accepting all opinions so far as have some validity in one way or another, because almost all points made so far had some form of fact backing them up in one way or another...

now, before i say my piece i would like to preface with saying that immacomputer is a smart mofo, and he knows his shhit... however in this post, he has neglected to account for a few things...

i understand what you mean about overcoming inertia... u get a motor structure moving a cone and its going to be hard to slow it down... especially with a clipped signal and added power due to distortion... however your car analogy does not acount for the suspension of the driver nor the damping of the enclosure...

if you said the car had a giant bungee cord to it then you would have been alot closer... but then imagine as the bungee reaches it limit of strechiness (xmech) the car (the cone) would then have to either slow down to the point of stopping or something would break...

so applying enough power whether it be clipped or not is bad for a sub.

and in my opinion clipping hurts a sub both mechanically and thermally...

thermally due to less cone movement, ie less cooling

and mechanically because the movement the cone is doing is violent and uncontrolled...

and in closing, who Fulking cares..... just dont clip your subs... it sounds like asss.

buy a better amp and we wont need to argue about it.

 
Extra dampening from where ever doesn't matter if we're talking about stopping on a dime and making a perfect square wave. I'm also not talking about driving the sub to or beyond mechanical limits -- we're talking about feeding the sub a clipped signal whose power is within thermal and mechanical limits of the sub.

But yes, the car analogy wasn't the best but not for reasons that you mentioned. The reason why is because all the dampening factors you can think of become arbitrary if you're trying to say the sub will make a perfect square wave. Why is this? Because you have an object traveling at the speed of light. This object is the moving assembly of the speaker. Are you familiar with the theory of Special Relativity and basic Calculus?

Using these ideas, I can prove that it will not move in a perfect square wave and that it would require infinite acceleration. This is NOT an opinion; this is math and physics.

Starting with the calculus approach, if you look at a square wave in a position vs time graph, you can see it goes from one point to another in 0 time.

2s1swg4.png


Just like this image I made, the speaker cone is expected to go from at rest to, let's say, 1" excursion. It is then supposed to stop on a dime and hold that 1" excursion point perfectly for 1/2 the wave length. At that point, it travels from the 1" point to the -1" instantly. This is 2" of travel done in 0 time and we did 1" of travel in 0 time as well. How can you travel different distances when taking the same amount of time? Well your velocities would have to be different. Here though, they don't matter because you get there instantly. To understand instantaneous travel, we have to just to the relativity discussion but I'll wait.

The next graph we need to think about is the velocity vs time graph which would be the derivative of the position vs time graph shown above. The only problem is that we have a function with an infinite slope (rise/run and in this case 1"/0). If the slope is infinite, the derivative is infinite which makes the next derivative (acceleration) infinite as well. That means we need infinite velocity to accomplish this goal. We need to accelerate to get to that point and the acceleration would also be infinite. This all would be possible if the cone could travel at the speed of light though.

This is where relativity comes in. Time dilation is a very real part of special relativity that states as an object approaches the speed of light, time begins to slow down with respect to the object traveling at those speeds. This happens to the point where time actually stops when you reach the speed of light. Well hey, that same thing is happening here! Time apparently stops for speaker since its moving assembly travels at the speed of light to travel a distance in no time. This is what you're implying if you think the sub actually follows the square wave with no overshoot and perfect hold.

So like I have said before, there will be overshoot and there will not be perfect hold. It's NOT an opinion that I have, it is a FACT. The sub will still move up and down and it will not travel less distance or be frozen as if you have a battery on it. So the SIGNAL (which is what we're talking about here) will not reduce the thermal power handling of the sub by a significant amount.

As for your mechanical reasoning, think about a speaker playing more than one frequency at a time. Think about the sharp peaks and quick transitions needed to play them all at the same time and then to change to other signals quickly. Does this ever cause speakers to tear themselves apart? Of course not. Speakers are capable of playing all sorts of signals without tearing themselves apart, including clipped signals. The only way they would tear themselves apart is if they were accelerating at an infinite rate!

 
very well explained... however many of the points that you made on further strengthen my argument... which i think i may have been unclear in explaining. my arguement was not that a motor structure could even remotely accurately reproduce a square wave... as you previously stated, physics will not allow it. however my point was that in trying to reproduce said signal the motor structure is trying to do things that it was not designed for... they are not design to attempt reaching infinate acceleration or linear transition from one position to another... woofers or any other driver for that matter are designed to as accurately as reasonable in a given application, reproduce audio information... a square wave is not audio information... it can be heard audibly because it has frequency and amplitude just as a sine wave does. But in fact this is ac signal in an extreme state...

im not saying that clipping will lower your thermal power handling or mechanical power handling. what i am saying is that running a clipped signal at a given power (whatever it may be) makes your driver try to work harder than it would at the same power level of a clean signal.

so as you said. i think we have similar theories (doesnt change power handling), but disagree on how the clipped signal actually affects the driver.

but like i said, if the consumer would do his homework, and set their equipment up right in the first place there would be no need for this discussion anyway.

 
very well explained... however many of the points that you made on further strengthen my argument... which i think i may have been unclear in explaining. my arguement was not that a motor structure could even remotely accurately reproduce a square wave... as you previously stated, physics will not allow it. however my point was that in trying to reproduce said signal the motor structure is trying to do things that it was not designed for... they are not design to attempt reaching infinate acceleration or linear transition from one position to another... woofers or any other driver for that matter are designed to as accurately as reasonable in a given application, reproduce audio information... a square wave is not audio information... it can be heard audibly because it has frequency and amplitude just as a sine wave does. But in fact this is ac signal in an extreme state... im not saying that clipping will lower your thermal power handling or mechanical power handling. what i am saying is that running a clipped signal at a given power (whatever it may be) makes your driver try to work harder than it would at the same power level of a clean signal.

so as you said. i think we have similar theories (doesnt change power handling), but disagree on how the clipped signal actually affects the driver.

but like i said, if the consumer would do his homework, and set their equipment up right in the first place there would be no need for this discussion anyway.
Umm, a square wave is audio information. It is the accumulation of the fundamental frequency and it's higher order components. The Fourier series for the given square wave can describe what is actually happening. Also, how can you say that something I hear isn't audio information? That is just not correct.

You say that you don't think it lowers mechanical power handling yet you say this too:

what i am saying is that running a clipped signal at a given power (whatever it may be) makes your driver try to work harder than it would at the same power level of a clean signal.
Well if it works harder, then it should fail with less average power than the clean signal. If it doesn't, then you just proved yourself wrong. Pick one side or the other; you can't argue both.

Take a look at this image of an audio signal vs time graph:

http://ac3filter.net/files/docs/ac3filter_1_30b/pic_loudness/a_signal.png

There are many sharp peaks and points of quick transitions. The speaker will not replicate these exactly and there will be changes from the input and output. This is distortion and every speaker suffers from some level of it. This signal won't cause the speaker to try to rip itself apart anymore than a square wave would.

The speaker will try its best to reproduce the signal as it sees it. The problem is that the motor structure will just apply what it can for acceleration. This will cause the output signal to lag from the input signal. This ghetto drawing that I made should help clarify this:

dd2gp1.png


*That graph shows the position of the cone vs time and is not to scale.

The overshoot and how quickly the sub settles will be based on the dampening of the suspension, enclosure, and the environment. At low volumes, the speaker will be able to replicate the signal easier but it still won't be exact and as you drive the speaker with a larger clipped signal, you will start to lose motor force and the graph will become even more distorted and probably more rounded. This movement is exactly what speakers have been designed to do and they shouldn't rip themselves apart to do so.

 
you pretty much said what i feel above... i just "think" (and this is just my opinion) that a driver has to work harder when a clipped signal is applied... im not saying that this will cause failure however it may affect the over performance of your driver on a long term basis... very much in the same way that a ported specific driver will more than likely run in a sealed enclosure on a long term basis, but as the suspension started to deteriorated due to excursion levels that the driver was not designed to handle on a daily basis... the driver will eventually lose performance.

i dont think clipping will neccesarily "destroy" a sub... but i feel that it will eventually affect performace... but again, buy a nice amp, set it correctly, and dont worry about it.

 
I ran my sub off of a 300watt amp clipping the shit out of it and the only problems I ever had was the amp heating up. The sub was on that amp for about three years now and it is still just as good as it was then.

Your reasoning is not correct and your "opinion" is wrong. The reason that it is wrong is because you're labeling an opinion with something that is either right or wrong. Just because you don't understand something, does not mean you can have an "opinion" on what is going on. You either understand it or you don't.

 
Activity
No one is currently typing a reply...
Old Thread: Please note, there have been no replies in this thread for over 3 years!
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.

About this thread

Death By Bass

10+ year member
WHATS A SUBWOOFER!?!?!?
Thread starter
Death By Bass
Joined
Location
Adelaide, Australia
Start date
Participants
Who Replied
Replies
179
Views
12,678
Last reply date
Last reply from
nineballsafety8
IMG_20260516_193114554_HDR.jpg

sherbanater

    May 16, 2026
  • 0
  • 0
IMG_20260516_192955471_HDR.jpg

sherbanater

    May 16, 2026
  • 0
  • 0

New threads

Top