Old School VS. New School Audio Hardware
- Thread starter wallacengineeri
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smgreen20
10+ year member
phoenixphorum-com
I chose new speakers and subs, but OS for the amps.
With todays technology from materials to CAD, advances have been made, but for the amps, there's nothing like the OS "power/feel/look" though the same could be said for amps as speakers.
With todays technology from materials to CAD, advances have been made, but for the amps, there's nothing like the OS "power/feel/look" though the same could be said for amps as speakers.
Rich B
5,000+ posts
CarAudio.com Veteran
New speakers, old school amps, and I said old school subs only because I consider new subs to be unnecessarily designed to have a low efficiency just so they can claim higher power ratings.
Its not uncommon for new subs to be rated at low 80's decibels (1W 1 meter) where the old school subs were in the low to mid 90 decibels.
Old school amps need more efficient subs because they usually dont make 1,500 to 5,000w like the newer amps.
Its not uncommon for new subs to be rated at low 80's decibels (1W 1 meter) where the old school subs were in the low to mid 90 decibels.
Old school amps need more efficient subs because they usually dont make 1,500 to 5,000w like the newer amps.
Bettr n' Revrse
5,000+ posts
I do what I want
cad ftw!
keep_hope_alive
Premium Member
Acoustics Engineer
most old speakers and subs were stamped steel baskets. we do a lot better nowadays with better cast baskets, better cone designs, better thermal control and better motors. but i've been happy with both new and old school speakers.
i run older amps because of price and performance. i would need to spend >$800 per amp to be as happy with modern products. i can get that level of quality for 1/4 the price buying used. plus, there haven't been any major improvements in amplifier sound quality - most "improvements" are efficiency, form factor, and lower prices with foreign construction.
i run older subs, but i think newer subs are much better all around as far as construction goes. but put a good condition sub in the right environment and it'll perform well regardless of age.
another section is old vs new head units and processors. this is tricky because there were some great head units even 5 years ago as far as running active. fewer of them now, just look at Alpine. There are only a handful left that are flexible. i ran a 1996 Alpine HU up until a few months ago. I tried dozens of other HU's but my CDA-7930 is my favorite for simplicity and quality. I don't care for compressed music sources, bluetooth streaming, sat radio, iPod, USB, etc.
older processors based on analog technology can sound much better than poorly made digital processors due to the cost of great DAC's. but we can do so much more with digital.
i run older amps because of price and performance. i would need to spend >$800 per amp to be as happy with modern products. i can get that level of quality for 1/4 the price buying used. plus, there haven't been any major improvements in amplifier sound quality - most "improvements" are efficiency, form factor, and lower prices with foreign construction.
i run older subs, but i think newer subs are much better all around as far as construction goes. but put a good condition sub in the right environment and it'll perform well regardless of age.
another section is old vs new head units and processors. this is tricky because there were some great head units even 5 years ago as far as running active. fewer of them now, just look at Alpine. There are only a handful left that are flexible. i ran a 1996 Alpine HU up until a few months ago. I tried dozens of other HU's but my CDA-7930 is my favorite for simplicity and quality. I don't care for compressed music sources, bluetooth streaming, sat radio, iPod, USB, etc.
older processors based on analog technology can sound much better than poorly made digital processors due to the cost of great DAC's. but we can do so much more with digital.
audioholic
5,000+ posts
not a moderator
keep_hope_alive is right on target, as usual.
Aside from the development of class D topology, amplifier tech hasn't really advanced in the past 20 years. Manufacturing has become more automated, so prices have dropped. And they've tended to pack more crap into the input stage of newer amps (EQ's, xovers, etc). But when discussing quality versus quality, there has been no new paradigm shift in tech advancement to really improve the amplification stages of amps today. This is why 'old school' amplifiers tend to still be so popular today, for the most part they are still just as useful/viable/legit as they were when they were new. Power handling on speakers has changed relatively radically in the past 10-20 years. But for subwoofers, not mids/tweets/comp sets. So a 50w x 4 or 100w x 4 amplifier of yesteryear is still just as effective a piece of equipment as it was when it was made. I prefer as much of my signal processing outboard and upstream of the amplifier as possible anyway. To me, the ideal amplifier would be a simple gainblock, voltage in one side, amplified voltage out the other. Nothing but gain adjusters.
More old school amplifiers were 'hand made in the USA' than amplifiers these days. That still means something to a lot of people. There a lot of points to be made on both sides of that debate. I was in the automation industry for many years, as a designer, so I have a particularly keen understanding of how automation can benefit a product. But I also have a nostalgic appreciation for the idea that a certain product was hand-made, by a trained person (or people), who took the time and care to make the product. But that is also just nostalgia in many ways too, because lets face it, plenty of stuff has been hand-made, and was still crappy.
Speakers. Speaker tech has evolved in the past couple of decades, and car audio speakers have become more refined in some ways (speaking very generally here). Like hope said, they have become more refined in ways like better quality baskets, better surround materials, and whether it improves sound quality aspects of the speaker, or simply aesthetic appeal of the speaker... their cones have been more intricate and visually appealing than older speakers.
To me, the biggest step in subwoofer tech in the past two decades is BL optimization, and general motor design improvements (like the use of shorting rings, better cooling, more linear excursion potential).
The power handling of the subs has been increased to compensate for this paradigm shift in how speakers utilize HIL. This has been done by way of larger diameter coils, more use of flat wound, increased cooling from better frames and motor designs that maximize air flow through the gap, etc. Its not a direct function of a subwoofer being less efficient.
Us old schoolers remember back when putting 2 10's in your trunk took a massive box. And that 500 watt 'monster amp' you bought for it, cost more money than the 2500 watt amp you use today. Many of those amps that were originally marketed/purchased to run subwoofers, are now being used to drive front stage speakers these days.
Aside from the development of class D topology, amplifier tech hasn't really advanced in the past 20 years. Manufacturing has become more automated, so prices have dropped. And they've tended to pack more crap into the input stage of newer amps (EQ's, xovers, etc). But when discussing quality versus quality, there has been no new paradigm shift in tech advancement to really improve the amplification stages of amps today. This is why 'old school' amplifiers tend to still be so popular today, for the most part they are still just as useful/viable/legit as they were when they were new. Power handling on speakers has changed relatively radically in the past 10-20 years. But for subwoofers, not mids/tweets/comp sets. So a 50w x 4 or 100w x 4 amplifier of yesteryear is still just as effective a piece of equipment as it was when it was made. I prefer as much of my signal processing outboard and upstream of the amplifier as possible anyway. To me, the ideal amplifier would be a simple gainblock, voltage in one side, amplified voltage out the other. Nothing but gain adjusters.
More old school amplifiers were 'hand made in the USA' than amplifiers these days. That still means something to a lot of people. There a lot of points to be made on both sides of that debate. I was in the automation industry for many years, as a designer, so I have a particularly keen understanding of how automation can benefit a product. But I also have a nostalgic appreciation for the idea that a certain product was hand-made, by a trained person (or people), who took the time and care to make the product. But that is also just nostalgia in many ways too, because lets face it, plenty of stuff has been hand-made, and was still crappy.
Speakers. Speaker tech has evolved in the past couple of decades, and car audio speakers have become more refined in some ways (speaking very generally here). Like hope said, they have become more refined in ways like better quality baskets, better surround materials, and whether it improves sound quality aspects of the speaker, or simply aesthetic appeal of the speaker... their cones have been more intricate and visually appealing than older speakers.
To me, the biggest step in subwoofer tech in the past two decades is BL optimization, and general motor design improvements (like the use of shorting rings, better cooling, more linear excursion potential).
Hoffman's Iron Law tells us: efficiency, low frequency extension, small enclosure... pick two. The car audio industry has gone to lower efficiency drivers because over seas manufacturing has driven down the price of amplifiers, allowing the speaker makers to make subs that will work in smaller enclosures (important for the guy wanting to cram as many/big of speakers in his Corolla's trunk as possible) and still retain their low frequency extension.
The power handling of the subs has been increased to compensate for this paradigm shift in how speakers utilize HIL. This has been done by way of larger diameter coils, more use of flat wound, increased cooling from better frames and motor designs that maximize air flow through the gap, etc. Its not a direct function of a subwoofer being less efficient.
Us old schoolers remember back when putting 2 10's in your trunk took a massive box. And that 500 watt 'monster amp' you bought for it, cost more money than the 2500 watt amp you use today. Many of those amps that were originally marketed/purchased to run subwoofers, are now being used to drive front stage speakers these days.
It's all a matter of personal preference and it is solely up to the end user as to whether they want to chance the best from 15 years ago or go with something new that has a warranty.
This was my experience with old school gear:
I used to be all into the old school amp thing, until I purchased one too many amplifiers that had issues. By one too many, I'm talking 95% of the amplifiers that I purchased on eBay had some sort of problem and they were not just the simple capacitor replacement that many suggest! There's nothing like overpaying for something that is 15 years old and having to send it off multiple times to have it working properly. After having nearly $500 tied up in a single 150 watt amplifier (75x2), all I can say is I've been there, done that, and you can't convince me to do it again!
This is my opinion on old school gear:
Old school subs... meh. You can't convince me to run a 10" sub that requires 2 to 3 cubic feet ported just because it is more efficient. That worked back in the day when power was expensive and running big power was really expensive, but now, power is relatively cheap. Another issue with old school subs is their untreated foam surrounds. There are two types of old school untreated foam surrounds... those that have failed, and those that WILL fail! It's just a matter of time.
Old school HUs... Does anyone really rely solely on CDs or cassette tapes these days? I'll take my music in some sort of lossless format on a portable device any day over having stacks of CDs in the car. Sure the Alpine 7909 and the Clarion DRZ9255 were great for their time, but lots of luck repairing one these days if the CD transport goes out.
This was my experience with old school gear:
I used to be all into the old school amp thing, until I purchased one too many amplifiers that had issues. By one too many, I'm talking 95% of the amplifiers that I purchased on eBay had some sort of problem and they were not just the simple capacitor replacement that many suggest! There's nothing like overpaying for something that is 15 years old and having to send it off multiple times to have it working properly. After having nearly $500 tied up in a single 150 watt amplifier (75x2), all I can say is I've been there, done that, and you can't convince me to do it again!
This is my opinion on old school gear:
Old school subs... meh. You can't convince me to run a 10" sub that requires 2 to 3 cubic feet ported just because it is more efficient. That worked back in the day when power was expensive and running big power was really expensive, but now, power is relatively cheap. Another issue with old school subs is their untreated foam surrounds. There are two types of old school untreated foam surrounds... those that have failed, and those that WILL fail! It's just a matter of time.
Old school HUs... Does anyone really rely solely on CDs or cassette tapes these days? I'll take my music in some sort of lossless format on a portable device any day over having stacks of CDs in the car. Sure the Alpine 7909 and the Clarion DRZ9255 were great for their time, but lots of luck repairing one these days if the CD transport goes out.
Ignatowski
5,000+ posts
CarAudio.com Veteran
I prefer old amps,many are made in USA too always a plus IMO......as for HUs seems like many MFGs are loading them up with gadgets but killing power
not all but some......my Excelon 889 with its 5v RCAs is far and away better sounding than any Alpine I ever tried ...Speakers are tricky,some sound great but in the wrong vehicle they can go flat......I went through 6-7 pairs of comps till I settled on some leftover ADSs that IMO smoked everything I had tried even at double the price...As for subs,seems you just get what you pay for,I dont swap subs as frequently as many kids on here do,I find what I like and stick with it,MacDaddys,Hex's,MTX,W7s FIQ are all I tried with the Q being my fav---Its all taste and preference......If you have the coin buy many,try em and sell them off
which is what I did.......Now I have a brand new truck so im inbetween systems but over the winter ill stab in something - Im really liking them PDX Alpine amps to use with me prev set up
not all but some......my Excelon 889 with its 5v RCAs is far and away better sounding than any Alpine I ever tried ...Speakers are tricky,some sound great but in the wrong vehicle they can go flat......I went through 6-7 pairs of comps till I settled on some leftover ADSs that IMO smoked everything I had tried even at double the price...As for subs,seems you just get what you pay for,I dont swap subs as frequently as many kids on here do,I find what I like and stick with it,MacDaddys,Hex's,MTX,W7s FIQ are all I tried with the Q being my fav---Its all taste and preference......If you have the coin buy many,try em and sell them off
which is what I did.......Now I have a brand new truck so im inbetween systems but over the winter ill stab in something - Im really liking them PDX Alpine amps to use with me prev set up
As others have mentioned above, I think it is a matter of personal preference. I prefer old school speakers, amps and subs, but only if they are in good condition. It is getting more and more difficult to find the older gear NIB or MINT. I must say, after purchasing many, many old school amps off eBay, I've only had a problem with 1 or 2 (in contrast to gunz4me2's experience above).
I'm an SQ guy, not a basshead so take my opinion for what it's worth. Now, I prefer the old school amps to collect, but given the $$, I'd take a JL HD 900/5 any day and use it in my daily driver. I just don't have a current need to switch as my 2002 RF Power 550x is still performing flawlessly (not really old school by my definition).
It still amazes me to see a MINT or NIB old school amp...hard for me to imagine someone would spend all of that $$ for nice gear and never use it. Wait, isn't that what we collectors do? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
I'm an SQ guy, not a basshead so take my opinion for what it's worth. Now, I prefer the old school amps to collect, but given the $$, I'd take a JL HD 900/5 any day and use it in my daily driver. I just don't have a current need to switch as my 2002 RF Power 550x is still performing flawlessly (not really old school by my definition).
It still amazes me to see a MINT or NIB old school amp...hard for me to imagine someone would spend all of that $$ for nice gear and never use it. Wait, isn't that what we collectors do? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
smgreen20
10+ year member
phoenixphorum-com
Surrounds: That's not entirely true. For those of us that took care of our systems, the parts within them, they will last. I used Armorall on all of my speakers surrounds, mids and subs. I wiped down everything every other week as I did with the dash/interior of the car. Those subs are still as good today as they were 16 yrs ago when I got them.
CD'd are the sole source of purity for 95% of us, While I will agree that most, myself included, used MP3's, music players, but I still have a few Cd's that I tote around with me as they are the SQ disc's. I wont compress those, lossless audio or not. I think for most, myself too, TRUE SQ will remain at home where the CD's remain.
After my negative buying experience regarding old school amplifiers, there is NO WAY I would chance purchasing old school speakers with regular foam surrounds unless I knew the exact conditions of useage and storage over the years. Unfortunately, I've been burned too many times so I generally go with new gear versus taking a chance.
- Thread Starter
- #12
Wow it seems like a lot of people like old school amplifiers. Huh, so whats wrong with old school speakers or subs?
keep_hope_alive
Premium Member
Acoustics Engineer
did you read the posts above that answer your question in detail?
- Thread Starter
- #14
Oh yes but I am wondering why so many people like the newer speakers and subs and yet the older amplifiers. Wouldn't there be compatibility problems, power issues, or wiring issues?
smgreen20
10+ year member
phoenixphorum-com
Why would there be? Old or new, amplifiers still amplify a signal, and a speaker is still a speaker.
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