Old School amps > New shit?

[Grinder1989 5,000+ posts]

Why are you getting all pissy? I believe you that the VLX is a beast, and no, Class A/B generally doesn't go that high in power and Class D was new then. And I am not going to try and weld with any amp.

I'm not getting pissy at all. I'm just telling you that those old school amps can be monsters. Don't underestimate them.

 

[edzy 10+ year member]

My little Experiment.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

I'm not getting pissy at all. I'm just telling you that those old school amps can be monsters. Don't underestimate them.

I'm not, the ones that are still remembered today are remembered for a reason.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

As for you other statements, there has been huge improvements in process technologies even in the last 10 years let alone the last 20. Transistors now are of a higher quality and can withstand higher temperatires and greater currents. Soldering technology has even improved greatly to allow the boards to be soldered better. Also, keep in mind that computer processing power has increased more than 10X in the last 10 years allowing better simulations and analysis to be done on designs, and with that better QC can be done because it is quicker to test more points on a board. Everfything in the manufacturing process has improved in 10 years, it is simply technology marching forward, somewhat like Moore's Law.

In the end I will stand by this statement, an amp positioned at the same market segment today will be better than an amp targeted at the same segment 10 years ago.

Not all of those "advances" are as much a step forward as you might think //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Sure, surface mount parts have been great for packing PCBs and shrinking sizes (and in RF work they're definitely needed), but ever try to work on one? You need a magnifying glass just to get any work done, and you've got about two tries to replace a part before the traces simply melt off the board.

The Pass Labs Aleph line is a great example of amps using technology that hasn't fundamentally changed since the 1930s, except it's using a MOSFET for the output stage instead of a triode. You can do all the SPICE modeling you want, but sometimes, the best stuff just comes out of looking at what you have in the parts pile //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Not all of those "advances" are as much a step forward as you might think //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Sure, surface mount parts have been great for packing PCBs and shrinking sizes (and in RF work they're definitely needed), but ever try to work on one? You need a magnifying glass just to get any work done, and you've got about two tries to replace a part before the traces simply melt off the board.

The Pass Labs Aleph line is a great example of amps using technology that hasn't fundamentally changed since the 1930s, except it's using a MOSFET for the output stage instead of a triode. You can do all the SPICE modeling you want, but sometimes, the best stuff just comes out of looking at what you have in the parts pile //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

I have tried soldering SMD stuff, it sucks, you are right, you do need magnification, it is not fun. I have also lifted my share of traces //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif This is not on amplifier stuff, but on stuff shown here http://www.enterprise.mtu.edu/im/projects.html

 

[tez4life Premium Member]

I will put my old school pg amp up against any of the new highend suff. Just replaced all the caps. Should run 15 more years without any issues //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Beautiful amps there, one of the first "quality" installs I ever heard was a pair of those amps. A M25 running a set of MB Quarts 6.5s up front and a M50 running a pair of JL Audio 10w6 (I believe) in a mid 80s S10 Blazer in 1995.

Sounded amazing, and 14 years later still can recall how good it was. The M50 got sold, but the M25 bounced between me and my cousin for the next 7 years. Worked flawlessly no matter weither it was on mids and highs duty, or pushing a sub or subs.

Its alot of "new school" amps I like, (Sundown, IA, etc...) but the old schools will always have a place in my heart due to memories.

 

[thegreatestpenn 5,000+ posts]

I've used amps from the early-mid 90's recently as well as amps from 2008. Best amps were newer, but I think there are alot of factors to be considered. Even the HU should be factored in because the EQ on decks now can factor in to how amps sound.

 

[cleansoundzz 10+ year member]

Sundown and RD Audio were not in existence before 2006, this is early 2009, give them about 5-7 more years before you start comparing them to old school proven stuff. Running to .15 ohms is not impressive. But how about doing that for 5+ years or more. Using Sundown and RD Audio are not fair comparisons. They are good companies no doubt but have not been around long enough. Crossfire is a better comparison. They have been around since 1993.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

Sundown and RD Audio were not in existence before 2006, this is early 2009, give them about 5-7 more years before you start comparing them to old school proven stuff. Running to .15 ohms is not impressive. But how about doing that for 5+ years or more. Using Sundown and RD Audio are not fair comparisons. They are good companies no doubt but have not been around long enough. Crossfire is a better comparison. They have been around since 1993.

I just threw those 2 out there, there are definitely MANY other great amps, IA is another one that comes to mind.

 

[Grinder1989 5,000+ posts]

IA, Sundown and RD are not comparable to the old schools (except for the basic amps) simply because they do not make a lot of Class A/B's. IA doesn't and Sundown makes a few and I believe RD does too. The amps that Bose speaks of are Class D. Class D is not a fair comparison to class A/B. Apples to Oranges.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

IA, Sundown and RD are not comparable to the old schools (except for the basic amps) simply because they do not make a lot of Class A/B's. IA doesn't and Sundown makes a few and I believe RD does too. The amps that Bose speaks of are Class D. Class D is not a fair comparison to class A/B. Apples to Oranges.

True, Class D should only be used for bass where Class A/B can be used for anything.

 

[Grinder1989 5,000+ posts]

True, Class D should only be used for bass where Class A/B can be used for anything.

OK but look at it like this, when an amp can dead short (welding) and continue to run, is that not more impressive than 0.15 ohm? Does that not show higher quality parts have been used? Better building techniques? Take the short protection circuit out of a big Class D amp like a IA 20.1 and see what happens when you touch the speaker leads. Not saying that IA is junk by any means but I can imagine what will happen. The thing is most amplifiers simply couldn't handle that kind of abuse.

 

[bose301s 5,000+ posts]

OK but look at it like this, when an amp can dead short (welding) and continue to run, is that not more impressive than 0.15 ohm? Does that not show higher quality parts have been used? Better building techniques? Take the short protection circuit out of a big Class D amp like a IA 20.1 and see what happens when you touch the speaker leads. Not saying that IA is junk by any means but I can imagine what will happen. The thing is most amplifiers simply couldn't handle that kind of abuse.

I've never seen it tried, lol. But how many people use their amps for welding //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I do agree that they can't necessarily handle it, but why do they need to? Being that overbuilt while good doesn't mean it will last longer and to be honest adds cost that doesn't need to be there since that is not even close to a realistic operating condition. I am sure there were VLX amps that failed out in the field, just like there are amps today, nothing is 100% bullet proof.

I thought af an analogy, at some point it becomes liek running a 4/0 power wire to your head unit, yea, its all well and cool that you have that, but there is no point to it.

 

[Grinder1989 5,000+ posts]

I've never seen it tried, lol. But how many people use their amps for welding //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I do agree that they can't necessarily handle it, but why do they need to? Being that overbuilt while good doesn't mean it will last longer and to be honest adds cost that doesn't need to be there since that is not even close to a realistic operating condition. I am sure there were VLX amps that failed out in the field, just like there are amps today, nothing is 100% bullet proof.
I thought af an analogy, at some point it becomes liek running a 4/0 power wire to your head unit, yea, its all well and cool that you have that, but there is no point to it.

Yes amps could fail (usually because the owner is an idiot) but the headroom is what amps a **** good amp be able to preform to it's limit. It's same reason people drive big bad *** cars with bad *** big blocks little grandpa's. It bugs me but they know that if they ever need the power, they have it handled.

 

[thegreatestpenn 5,000+ posts]

handling abuse does not equal quality product, it could still sound like poop*