New box for my box

[ultimate157 5,000+ posts]

I was pretty disappointed to see Audiobahn in a 350z as well as (though not as bad) RF subs in a 745i

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

I do notice you declined to tell us why your box guy thought mixing enclosure types was a positive thing. All you have said is that you trust in his abilities. He should be able to give a plausible answer to the question. He must have had some reason, right?
I know you are taking this as all negative, and sadly for some here thats all it is to them. But alot of this is people in the hobby, looking out for other enthusiasts in the same hobby. Your shop was going to build this guy a poor design, that's simple truth.

You seem friendly to advice, please allow me to give you some. Buy a book called Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, by Vance Dickason. You dont have to learn everything in it, but you own an audio shop... imo its worth a few nights in bed reading it to learn some fundamentals of designing a speaker system. Its considered a valued reference book in the audio field, and honestly... it wont take long looking through it to find the fundamental flaws in your box guy's sealed/ported attempt.

In learning even just the basics, you will be able to know when 'your guy' is BS'ing you, like he is with this sealed/ported nonsense. A little kowledge could go a long way towards improving you, and your business.

Good luck to you.

In all honesty I respect the advise EVERYONE is giving me, us, (JLS) - I'll take you up on all the advice all given here. The book seems like something every shop owner should have in their library - I may have come across that title in other readings online and other forums/websites. I DO know that it is a hobby - in which I do indulge myself into - but not as much as many of you guys are here. It's almost like a religion here and I can respect it because you all love it so much. And to attain the vast knowledge you all have goes to show how much it does mean to you guys. Again so I can clarify - I have ENOUGH knowledge for myself to handle clients and help them to the best of my ability. I take little if any help design and fabrication of any enclosure. And if I didn't clarify that or state why my "box" guy stated why it's a positive issue - he says it would "fill all frequencies". Again, I'm no guru so therefore trusting his experience and knowing him to have done a lot of designs in the past that sounded great I will stand by hiim.

BUT Steve came by and stated his concerns and we corrected it immediately. I'm sorry if I'm taking everything most people are posting negatively but it seems like people are talking down upon instead of stating issues at hand. And when I say - using derogatory and name-calling to "help" a person...that's what I mean. But nonetheless words are words. It's just most and I emphasize most, not all, use this method and show very little concern as to HELP. That's all..

As for advice and all that is said - we take it as criticism and nothing more. If you dislike us fine, if not great! But making assumptions about our business practice and what we're all about because of "enclosure designs" is ludicrous and outright ignorant. AGAIN, this is just my opinion and what is felt from all these posts.

Anyhow, thank you Audioholic for all the advice and such a positive but blunt answers/questions - it is all appreciated. And to everybody else thanks as well!

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

I find up to a 1:9 ratio is acceptable.
Good point jmanpc, and one I meant to make too but forgot. There is absolutely no reason you cannot build an enclosure that looks good (flashy, refined, futuristic, whatever) and still maintains the proper performance level. Much of this point seems to be based around the slot port box, that when covered with a beauty panel, became 3 small slot ports. To say this was done for aesthetics is ridiculous. 3 small ports looks better than 1 large one? Okay, to some people I suppose. But in doing so, making a judgement call as to what would look better, you altered the port area, and thus possibly tuning (at worst, added port noise at best). So performance was sacrificed, for a 'look' that isn't even necessarily better. Again, all show and no go.

Clearly this shop bases its reputation from feeding off noobs who dont know any better than to question their box expert's advice. No wonder he doesn't like going to message board, he probably doesn't like being told how terrible he is.

I just hope the boss/owner has enough sense to read the book and do a little learning on his own. Then maybe he'll see the lousy knowledge base of the man with whom he is trusting with the repuation of his business. Someone at that shop needs to smarten up, desperately.

ALRIGHT - hold up - this is the "owner" as everybody is labeling me. Sorry for the response given to you guys by the Fabricator/Installer but he is just voicing his concerns and speaking up for himself and I can understand. He had no voice until then - I hope all of you can understand how one could feel after being criticized so heavily by othe peers (who mind you are also "experts" in their realm). Like I said and I'll stand by what I said - I trust my "fabricator/installer" BUT I do take all into consideration what you have ALL said and voiced to us regarding installs/enclosures/looks/sound going hand in hand. It's understand and I would like to leave it at that.

All it seems is this will continue to dwell into more posting and bashing and yada yada! It's mindless jabber because it always comes to pride and experience and what one ears says is good in which the other says its different. SO everybody just enjoy the hobby which is "CAR AUDIO" and help each other out. Like I said - if you dislike us fine - if you like us fine. At the end Steve will get the BOX HOW WE WANTS it and HOW IT SOUNDS "GOOD" to him. That's all we want to do for our clients. I just read up on the last posts after I posted my reply to Audioholic so now I'm caught up. Again, hopefully most can understand how my "fabricator" can feel with all this "bashing" going towards us/him. Excuse him if it offends anybody but I can relate - especially if being attacked and bashed for "enclosure designs". I just take it as all constructive criticism...mind you VERY blunt. No offense taken by any means...

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

I was pretty disappointed to see Audiobahn in a 350z as well as (though not as bad) RF subs in a 745i

Assuming we sold him and "designed" this from scratch was not our intentions - customer came in with all products and asked for it to be done this way...I know, NO EXCUSE BUT customers ask - we'll do. Remember, not everybody is an audio enthusiasts - just form and function for regular Joe.

 

[ultimate157 5,000+ posts]

I just find it hard to believe that an installer would recommend an enclosure knowing that it will lead to cancellation, and is not the best setup that can be done with the resources at hand.

Assuming we sold him and "designed" this from scratch was not our intentions - customer came in with all products and asked for it to be done this way...I know, NO EXCUSE BUT customers ask - we'll do. Remember, not everybody is an audio enthusiasts - just form and function for regular Joe.

I can agree with that.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Yes, I expected your fabricator would say something along the lines of 'it fills all frequencies'. I guess if I had been you, my follow-up question would have been: "then do all those other boxes you've built for our customers that are not sealed AND ported fail at filling all the required frequencies?" Do you see what Im getting at?

The substage is required to play approximately 2 octaves. 20hz to 80hz, give or take a little. That's it, 2 measely octaves. And your box guy can't build a simple sealed or ported box that spans this entire frequency range? Yes, he can, and does. But he is now filling your head with nonsense. Seriously.

Either the sealed OR the ported setup would fill the entire freq range, given the proper design. But marrying the two types in one system leads to erratic and unpredictable frequency response. Unpredictable frequency response is a recipe for poor performance, be it SQ or SPL. Maybe it always sounds good to your ears, and your customer's ears, because you dont know what you're missing....?

I appreciate you taking my words as constructive. No offense is meant to you. Im actually trying to help you help your business. Its doing well now with your box guy's designs/attitude, great. But, does this not mean there is no room for improvement? Blunt moment... you need a new box guy.

Cheers.

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

I find up to a 1:9 ratio is acceptable.
Good point jmanpc, and one I meant to make too but forgot. There is absolutely no reason you cannot build an enclosure that looks good (flashy, refined, futuristic, whatever) and still maintains the proper performance level. Much of this point seems to be based around the slot port box, that when covered with a beauty panel, became 3 small slot ports. To say this was done for aesthetics is ridiculous. 3 small ports looks better than 1 large one? Okay, to some people I suppose. But in doing so, making a judgement call as to what would look better, you altered the port area, and thus possibly tuning (at worst, added port noise at best). So performance was sacrificed, for a 'look' that isn't even necessarily better. Again, all show and no go.

Clearly this shop bases its reputation from feeding off noobs who dont know any better than to question their box expert's advice. No wonder he doesn't like going to message board, he probably doesn't like being told how terrible he is.

I just hope the boss/owner has enough sense to read the book and do a little learning on his own. Then maybe he'll see the lousy knowledge base of the man with whom he is trusting with the repuation of his business. Someone at that shop needs to smarten up, desperately.

Okay,

Points are taken and I can understand that all of this would make sense to the construction of a "perfect" enclosure for those particular subs. Hopefully, my "fabricator" would agree but it's at his discretion and I cannot speak for him.

Yes, true like ANY arena there are vehicles for show, there are ones for go, and rarely there's the few that hit it on the dot and fill both arenas which are always setting standards. I applaud those and can respect those who would like to attain that level of "CAR AUDIO" perfection.

Now this one I can't really take lightly as you assume that we "feed off noobs" - in no way we don't as I (we) hold taking care of our clients at a high level. MAYBE, not at a level an "audio enthusiast" would believe or think of - but we do set a lot of these "hole in the wall" shops around us and in the area to shame. As for the "fabricator" not going on message boards - he honestly is BUSY not only with the shop but also personal issues and in all honesty doesn't have the free time to leisure and go on boards to dwell into car audio like most of the major enthusiasts. Hence, most boards like this are for HARD CORE enthusiasts...which is all well respected by me.

As far as "business" goes - I seem to have that in control and have plenty of knowledge like most of you here have about car audio. Business can't always run on being "pure" and honest BUT integrity is important and that is one vital part of our business! In which it allows us to retain and keep our current customers and for them to refer us more customers! Audioholic, if you've been in the industry for a long time - you know trying to always BE perfect and being so honest doesn't always "make the sale" or gets the clients in the door. IN ALL HONESTLY and being BLUNT - it's a give and take and you help the customer to the best of your ability without cluttering their mind with "details" of how/what it should be done but rather when/how much it will cost. Business is my forte and I will take that more personal than anything because as you can see - I've been as professional and forthright with EVERYBODY on here. And like I said - with all the knowledge and experience that everybody on here has - I do hope you guys do have your own "shop" and are helping consumers learn and know what they're "system" should be like. You'd probably be making a lot of money as well - for those who have the LEAST experience about business - please don't assume and make comments about business ethics...it'd be ignorant to do so when you have no experience under your belt. E-BAY doesn't count...

Back to this whole situation - I honestly enjoy and like all this debate/commenting in regards to the situation. It helps EVERYBODY, but mostly Steve who is getting his system done with us. If he doesn't like it at the end...he will post accordingly...if he loves it...he'll post accordingly - only he and his ears to HIS liking will be the judge. Everybody else's comments are just that - comments.

Thanks for EVERYBODY'S input which is greatly appreciate - I do hope that my "fabricator" can take all these blunt constructive criticism lightly - but that is at his discretion and not mines. As for picking up the book...maybe I will and read up a little. But in all honesty - I know enough to take care of business...although it will help!

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

I just find it hard to believe that an installer would recommend an enclosure knowing that it will lead to cancellation, and is not the best setup that can be done with the resources at hand.


I can agree with that.

Thanks - appreciate the thought in regards to that system. We're just showcasing all work done. Hopefully EVERYBODY doesn't think we sold EVERYTHING on their and DESIGNED it for all these customers. Some if not most of our clients buy their own products - eBay, online or whatever avenue...that's why this industry or at least the sales portion has declined so much! Thanks again!

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

Like Audioholic said, I was starting to have a little respect for your shop, and then Mr. Installer came along with his condescending attitude. I don't have bionic ears or a widget that insures that I hit my notes correctly... but I do have a basic knowledge of how a sub should sound.
The thing that just BAFFLES me about your work is you keep referencing how you want it to look good. HAVE YOU READ WHAT HAS BEEN SAID OVER AND OVER IN THIS THREAD?! Good looking and good sounding can go hand-in-hand... you just have to know what you're doing. Obviously, you don't know what you're doing, since it seems like you believe the two are mutually exclusive. I've made some ugly, loud boxes, but I've made many more good-looking, loud boxes.

Let me give you a few pointers:

-Don't mix enclosure types. Ever. You should have figured this out my now.

-Don't mix subs. You should probably know this, too... but you don't have a great record. I'll throw that one in for free.

-For daily beating, try to tune to 35hz or lower. (Not 42hz!)

-The rule of thumb is to have 12-15 sq. in. of port per cubic foot for slot-ports

-Another rule of thumb is that the ports length to width ratio should never exceed 8:1

Those are some of the most basic box design rules. You broke #1,3,4, and 5 from just what we have seen in this thread. If this thread were an enclosure building test, you'd have a 20%. Fail.

JMANPC,

much respect for all points and advice - it's well taken by me. As for my fabricator - at his discretion. I know EVERYONE is giving blunt straightforward criticism...just mind that if you were the one receiving it - it's hard to take in when coming from peers who are in all honesty "experts". I do believe a good-looking box with good-sounds can be made..agreed. Thanks for ALMOST respecting/liking us - but honestly I'm not here to win over anybody but be a voice for my shop and help our client achieve what he wants. All of these critiques are just a PLUS as experience and notes for the next job...kudos!

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

Wow your shop was actually starting to seem just misunderstood but then your installer came in and shot his mouth off. Why do I not build speaker boxes for a living? Because I have goals to make more for my life. Mechanical Engineering pays a lot more buddy. So we have too much time on our hands? Maybe you should make some time to observe the forum and learn how to design a better box. And what baffles me is that these are simple designs! Not some t-line or 6th order!

Points taken - but again like I said, my fabricator is now the focus of "attack" and is just voicing himself. It always comes to pride fellas and I'm just leaving it at that and just to say...there's always somebody smarter, wiser, faster then you - don't always think you're the best!

Just my beliefs - no direction intended there at anybody. Just a statement.

 

[JLJunkieMX107 10+ year member]

What gets me is that you just said your designer/fabricator has no time to learn more, yet it is his profession. If you are putting your name out on the line with each setup I would make for **** sure my installer is at the top of his game. You just proved how much he really needs to learn by telling us that he stated a ported and sealed design will "fill all frequencies".

You are making it sound as if it is really not a concern to have a proper enclosure. You are not understanding the point. A show system can sound good if you take the time to design it correctly!!!! It is pretty sad when we are not even making a living from car audio but it is evident that most(not saying myself) that have posted know more about design. Perhaps you could come on with a humble spirit and ask for advice since you willingly admit you do not know as much about the audio side of the spectrum?

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

What gets me is that you just said your designer/fabricator has no time to learn more, yet it is his profession. If you are putting your name out on the line with each setup I would make for **** sure my installer is at the top of his game. You just proved how much he really needs to learn by telling us that he stated a ported and sealed design will "fill all frequencies".
You are making it sound as if it is really not a concern to have a proper enclosure. You are not understanding the point. A show system can sound good if you take the time to design it correctly!!!! It is pretty sad when we are not even making a living from car audio but it is evident that most(not saying myself) that have posted know more about design. Perhaps you could come on with a humble spirit and ask for advice since you willingly admit you do not know as much about the audio side of the spectrum?

Yes, true it's his profession, my "fabricator", and like I said - I'll stand by him and his experience as well as my shop and my guys. He's built plenty of great cars and they speak for themselves. If he takes all your comments as advice or "bashings" that's at his discretion. I can't speak for him. I don't question that any of you guys don't know your "car audio". But aside from the enthusiasts remember that not all want a "perfect" sounding system. Granted Steve is the one wanting the "perfect" system for him and it will only come down to him. All these advice/comments hopefully helps everyone else as it is taken by me as advice and/or criticism. I never said I wouldn't take advice or ask for it - I'm simply here to voice what we're all about. I also said and gave my side of the "audio" knowledge I have. I have yet to judge and make assumptions by anybody else here.

All that can be said is once it is said and done - Steve has the last word. Not yours, mines, or anybody else's. We can only advise or comment on it...that's my 2cents!

Again I do appreciate all the comments and advice...never did say I wouldn't take it.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I think Ive expended about all the energy I will on this. I doubt anything more constructive will come from this beyond the new box the OP already is getting. But I will say one more thing.

Your shop is not just a parts house, and/or an install shop, people come to you and your fabricator looking for good sound advice (pardon the pun). When you or your guy build a customer a box that has fundamental flaws in the design, that could have sounded better but doesn't... you fail said customer at that responsibility. I guess it makes it okay when your sales people or fabricator convince the customer how good that flawed design sounds? It does not take a golden ear to hear the problems associated with mixing enclosure types. And suggesting it does, proves you do in fact cater to noobs.

You cannot have it both ways, telling us you sacrifice sonic performance for looks, but that your shop caters to knowledgeable clients. Im sure you can see the contradiction there.

At some point responsibility for sending fundamentally sound installs out the door no longer falls on your fabricator's shoulders, or your customer's immediate smile at hearing the product, it falls on YOURS, as the boss. Customers that come to you and your shop are owed a responsibility to give them good advice. Offering a ported/sealed box is failing the customer at that responsibility. Excusing it as 'would have made the customer smile anyway' is a poor excuse.

Good day to you.

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

I think Ive expended about all the energy I will on this. I doubt anything more constructive will come from this beyond the new box the OP already is getting. But I will say one more thing.
Your shop is not just a parts house, and/or an install shop, people come to you and your fabricator looking for good sound advice (pardon the pun). When you or your guy build a customer a box that has fundamental flaws in the design, that could have sounded better but doesn't... you fail said customer at that responsibility. I guess it makes it okay when your sales people or fabricator convince the customer how good that flawed design sounds? It does not take a golden ear to hear the problems associated with mixing enclosure types. And suggesting it does, proves you do in fact cater to noobs.

You cannot have it both ways, telling us you sacrifice sonic performance for looks, but that your shop caters to knowledgeable clients. Im sure you can see the contradiction there.

At some point responsibility for sending fundamentally sound installs out the door no longer falls on your fabricator's shoulders, or your customer's immediate smile at hearing the product, it falls on YOURS, as the boss. Customers that come to you and your shop are owed a responsibility to give them good advice. Offering a ported/sealed box is failing the customer at that responsibility. Excusing it as 'would have made the customer smile anyway' is a poor excuse.

Good day to you.

I've also used up more than enough energy on this ...but it's for all good reason - to represent JLS fairly and stand in to listen to Steve's concerns. As for all the "technicalities" of building this system for Steve, it comes to what he wants and how my fabricator will work with him. As for sacrificing looks for sound and making that an excuse - it applies to each customer accordingly. Some like the looks, some like sound, and for the ones that go to the extreme of one or the other we'll help out accordingly to the BEST of our abililties! We're always learning and I admit that we can always learn more!

As far as business advice and responsibility of giving customers sufficient info in regards to what they'll be getting - we always fulfill that and give them that advice well needed. Would we care to put ourselves out there on this board if we didn't care what our client was thinking or wanting? But yet we are...we DO take that extra mile! As far as this ported/sealed box - basic is sealed sounds cleaner then a ported box, unless it's tuned right. That's all simple - if Steve doesn't "smile" at the end of this - he'll let you all know!

Good day to you and thanks for your time in replying and all comments/advice...

 

[jlsmobilesound 10+ year member]

I think Ive expended about all the energy I will on this. I doubt anything more constructive will come from this beyond the new box the OP already is getting. But I will say one more thing.
Your shop is not just a parts house, and/or an install shop, people come to you and your fabricator looking for good sound advice (pardon the pun). When you or your guy build a customer a box that has fundamental flaws in the design, that could have sounded better but doesn't... you fail said customer at that responsibility. I guess it makes it okay when your sales people or fabricator convince the customer how good that flawed design sounds? It does not take a golden ear to hear the problems associated with mixing enclosure types. And suggesting it does, proves you do in fact cater to noobs.

You cannot have it both ways, telling us you sacrifice sonic performance for looks, but that your shop caters to knowledgeable clients. Im sure you can see the contradiction there.

At some point responsibility for sending fundamentally sound installs out the door no longer falls on your fabricator's shoulders, or your customer's immediate smile at hearing the product, it falls on YOURS, as the boss. Customers that come to you and your shop are owed a responsibility to give them good advice. Offering a ported/sealed box is failing the customer at that responsibility. Excusing it as 'would have made the customer smile anyway' is a poor excuse.

Good day to you.

Note:

As far as claiming to cater to a certain "group" we take care of EVERYBODY - so whether it be a noob or enthusiast we will take care of them accordingly. We don't take advantage of noob's as referred to earlier and have also dealt with enthusiasts..

Okay..tired - enough for today! Thanks