Need Advice on new system

[nicholas_r_d]

tldr : New car, new audio system. The "s" and "ch" and "sh" sounds are not right...it sounds almost like a lisp, splatter, static, inferior source...but only in a specific frequency.


Car
2022 Lincoln Aviator w/ Revel Sound System (28 stock speakers)

Equipment
Focal 3-Way (x4) (all 4 doors)
Focal mid/tweet (center dash area)
Mosconi 4ch (2x)
JL 1000/1
JL HO112 (W7AE)
Stinger Battery

My previous vehicle was an 02' Escalade EXT which had a 2-way Focal setup in the front doors and nothing in the rear. It had a stealth box JL 12Tw6's. I played music from my iPhone using Apple Music (with the lossless audio enabled). The system sounded great.

Went back to the same place (10 years later) and had them do a new install of the above equipment. They had the vehicle for about 4 weeks and when I got it back, there is a noticeable difference in sound quality compared to my older/cheaper system. The new setup has some terrible "splatter" (not sure the right verbiage) in a certain frequency. Some examples of songs that just sound bad are

Arizona Zervas - FML
Russ - Keep It Pushin
Fences - Arrows
Smino - Anita
Alabama Shakes - Sound & Color
Chance The Rapper - Hot Shower

So...I went back to the install place and told them about the issue. They had it for another day and didn't make it sound any better and then told me that it was the factory speaker grills that was causing the issue. I didn't fully buy that explanation (I am sure custom grills would allow it to sound its best, but the issue cannot only be the factory grills).

Since I didn't buy that answer, I took my vehicle to another car audio place in town and gave them all the information. They recommended that we install a Bit One HD Virtuoso to control all of the audio sources/signals and that they would be able to tune the vehicle with all the current hardware in it. I have placed an order for the $2,000 DSP and am waiting for it to ship to the local shop.

In the meantime, I would like to get more educated about this and have a better idea of what happened to the original install (and why it sounds so bad). As well as get advice with the route I am on currently. Does my plan of action make the most sense? Is there anything that I am missing or should consider at this point? Any advice, help, reassurance I am doing the right/wrong thing would be greatly appreciated.

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[1aespinoza 10+ year member]

Any advice

It sounds as if the tweeters may be overdriven. Could you check the Focal x-overs for an attenuation switch? If set to zero, set it to -6 or -12 (if option is available). Also check the tweeter/midrange wiring, could be wiring error.

 

[nicholas_r_d]

It sounds as if the tweeters may be overdriven. Could you check the Focal x-overs for an attenuation switch? If set to zero, set it to -6 or -12 (if option is available). Also check the tweeter/midrange wiring, could be wiring error.

I will check out the x-overs and see if there is anything. The issue is definitely with the mids too though…if not more so an issue with them…and the “woofer” also seems off haha…I wish I could articulate it better.

the 2nd guy that looked at it (briefly) and thought it was hooked up “correctly” although he would wire it different (each 4ch is feeding 2 doors). He would like to use 6/8 channels for dedicated lines to the front 3-ways and then the other two channels to power each set of 3-ways in the back.

what are your thoughts about the processor? The 2nd guy that looked at it said with an OEM system integration you need a dsp for the sound to come out right. Any thoughts on that?

 

[1aespinoza 10+ year member]

what are your thoughts about the processor? The 2nd guy that looked at it said with an OEM system integration you need a dsp for the sound to come out right. Any thoughts on that?

That was where my next question was headed. Are the amps connected to the OEM radio? If yes, was an Line Output Converter used? If it was a simple LOC and the OEM radio is the upgraded unit, you will have sound issues. Fancy OEMs have eq curves programmed to protect paper speakers and also to make them sound better. So if speakers lacked in the midrange, the eq curve would amplify that range to correct the sound. That is where a good DSP comes in. It will flatten the eq curve and cancel any bass attenuation when volume goes up.

 

[nicholas_r_d]

That was where my next question was headed. Are the amps connected to the OEM radio? If yes, was an Line Output Converter used? If it was a simple LOC and the OEM radio is the upgraded unit, you will have sound issues. Fancy OEMs have eq curves programmed to protect paper speakers and also to make them sound better. So if speakers lacked in the midrange, the eq curve would amplify that range to correct the sound. That is where a good DSP comes in. It will flatten the eq curve and cancel any bass attenuation when volume goes up.

You kinda lost me...but I think I followed MOST of what you said haha

I do not know what the original installer used (line output converter, etc.)

The original installer had the Mosconi amps powering the new speakers, the JL amp powering the sub and then left the factory amp powering the reminder of the stock speakers in the car (there are height speakers, rear cabin speakers, etc.)

So what you are saying (in dummy terms I can understand)...the factory amp & head unit (or whatever we call the front interface that I use to control music, nav, climate, etc.) are pre-programmed to boost certain frequencies at certain volume levels (or something in those terms...they "mess" with the strength of the frequency instead of bringing up ALL of the levels when I turn the volume up equally? So those "s" & "ch" sounds are getting MORE amplified when I turn up the volume than the other frequencies? Did I explain that (basically) right?



So the bit One HD Virtuoso would be a good solution to get all the frequencies to jump up at the same levels (instead of one frequency getting pushed too much as the volume raises)?

What are your thoughts about him re-wiring the doors to provide 6 channels directly to the front doors and then powering the rear doors with just one channel each? Will that make the front stage much better? Will it make my rear stage less than ideal (not enough power)? Should I go ahead and put in a 3rd 4ch Mosoconi amp and have all 4 doors (Focal 3-way) have a dedicated channel from the amp(s)?

At this point, I am in for so much $$$ that another 4ch Mosconi amp isn't going to break me...I want the system to sound as good as possible and it I need to put in another $1,000 for another 4ch Mosconi, then so be it.

 

[1aespinoza 10+ year member]

So what you are saying (in dummy terms I can understand)...the factory amp & head unit (or whatever we call the front interface that I use to control music, nav, climate, etc.) are pre-programmed to boost certain frequencies at certain volume levels (or something in those terms...they "mess" with the strength of the frequency instead of bringing up ALL of the levels when I turn the volume up equally? So those "s" & "ch" sounds are getting MORE amplified when I turn up the volume than the other frequencies? Did I explain that (basically) right?

100% yes.

So the bit One HD Virtuoso would be a good solution to get all the frequencies to jump up at the same levels (instead of one frequency getting pushed too much as the volume raises)?

Yes.

What are your thoughts about him re-wiring the doors to provide 6 channels directly to the front doors and then powering the rear doors with just one channel each? Will that make the front stage much better?

By the looks of it, that BitOne is one fancy unit. An all in one. So rewiring is necessary to take full advantage of that BitOne. Full control of each 3-way speaker. As long as the installer knows how to program the BitOne, it will definitely sound better.

Will it make my rear stage less than ideal (not enough power)? Should I go ahead and put in a 3rd 4ch Mosoconi amp and have all 4 doors (Focal 3-way) have a dedicated channel from the amp(s)?

An audio tech once explained to me that each component gets the full power if it is part of a 2 or 3 way setup with a shared passive crossover. If the channel gives 75wRMS, the tweeter, midrange, and midbass all get the full 75wRMS. It is not 75 ÷ 3. Most of it was beyond my understanding but the general idea took hold. So I would do without the other Mosconi if lack of power is your concern. Also, being able to perceive subtleties and time alignments in back of you may prove difficult IMO.
Buuut.. If in for a penny, in for a pound will not break you; might as well get it done. That way you will not wonder.
I am still very curious as to what the first installer used as a signal leveler.

 

[nicholas_r_d]

An audio tech once explained to me that each component gets the full power if it is part of a 2 or 3 way setup with a shared passive crossover. If the channel gives 75wRMS, the tweeter, midrange, and midbass all get the full 75wRMS. It is not 75 ÷ 3. Most of it was beyond my understanding but the general idea took hold. So I would do without the other Mosconi if lack of power is your concern.

I am getting confused (again)...the Mosconi amps are simply there to provide (additional) clean power to the speakers, right?

The Virtuoso is there to manage the signals/frequencies/volumes/gain/a bunch of other things I don't fully understand/etc. right?

So if what you said above is correct about power to the 3-way's...why would I need to re-wire anything?

I believe I am missing the "connecting" piece here...like I am just not putting everything together into the bigger picture so I can truly understand everything as a "whole" system. I am understanding (I think) the various intricate details when they are explained to me but then I come up with questions like...well if the speakers all get full power then why would I need to send more than 1 cable to them in order to power all 3 to their fullest capability?

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

What's absent from the equipment list is a solution to interface properly with the Revel factory electronics. Without that there is no possible way we can correctly diagnose the root cause of the annoying sound. It does indicate a frequency response imbalance, which can come from multiple places in the signal path.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

It sounds as if the tweeters may be overdriven. Could you check the Focal x-overs for an attenuation switch? If set to zero, set it to -6 or -12 (if option is available). Also check the tweeter/midrange wiring, could be wiring error.

This may be true.

.the factory amp & head unit (or whatever we call the front interface that I use to control music, nav, climate, etc.) are pre-programmed to boost certain frequencies at certain volume levels (or something in those terms...they "mess" with the strength of the frequency instead of bringing up ALL of the levels when I turn the volume up equally?

Yes. Many "speaker systems" will have some built in filter/boost circuits to tweak the signal going to the various speakers. If it's say a bookshelf speaker system or pre-installed soundsystem in a vehicle it's an easy way for manufacturers to tweak things to sound right. For example, whatever tweeter they get a million of sounds a little anemic in that vehicle, just build in a boost there. Some may also have some sort of compressor function where bass frequencies are boosted more at lower volume levels. The point is it's all designed to work as a "system" of the exact speakers/processing in the exact locations. Start messing about with variables and you're often straying away from intended/optimal.

Consider also, factory speaker mounting locations may be sub-optimum (not sure about grills but they can't help).

Not sure how you really go about keeping all the "smart" functionality of the head unit in a new car and guarantee reliable signal to your components. Perhaps one of those fancy DSPs will get the job done.

Good luck and do report back if you make any progress. I can tell you that it's not any of your aftermarket equipment as a weak link here.

 

[nauc 10+ year member]

id run your Focal, Mosconi and JL stuff with one of these...

OEM Integration

www.jlaudio.com

 

[nicholas_r_d]

What's absent from the equipment list is a solution to interface properly with the Revel factory electronics. Without that there is no possible way we can correctly diagnose the root cause of the annoying sound. It does indicate a frequency response imbalance, which can come from multiple places in the signal path.

I am struggling to find the invoice from the installer and have already requested they print/scan/e-mail me a copy of it (they are that antiquated, yes...maybe another sign that they couldn't do this new high-tech stuff...learning the hard way).

Once I get that, maybe it will shed some light on what they used.

Once the other installer gets the Virtuoso in, they will take my car and get into the guts of the setup and really see what was used and what is going on. I will ask that they take pictures along the way and keep me updated on what they are finding/needing to change.

 

[1aespinoza 10+ year member]

the Mosconi amps are simply there to provide (additional) clean power to the speakers, right?

Yes.

The Virtuoso is there to manage the signals/frequencies/volumes/gain/a bunch of other things I don't fully understand/etc. right

Yes.

So if what you said above is correct about power to the 3-way's...why would I need to re-wire anything?

Only reason to rewire, is to take advantage of the Virtuoso's multiple settings for every individual speaker. For this technique, you cannot use the passive x-overs. The Virtuoso will control every tweeter, midrange, and midbass individually, so it needs one channel for each speaker. 3 channels per door, hence the need to add wires. I assumed this was a request on your behalf to the new shop. There are more affordable units if you just want to clean up the signal, e.g. the JL Audio listed above. Going this route, you only need one 4 channel amp, and the passive x-overs are utilized. One channel per 3-way set.

 

[nicholas_r_d]

Only reason to rewire, is to take advantage of the Virtuoso's multiple settings for every individual speaker. For this technique, you cannot use the passive x-overs. The Virtuoso will control every tweeter, midrange, and midbass individually, so it needs one channel for each speaker. 3 channels per door, hence the need to add wires. I assumed this was a request on your behalf to the new shop. There are more affordable units if you just want to clean up the signal, e.g. the JL Audio listed above. Going this route, you only need one 4 channel amp, and the passive x-overs are utilized. One channel per 3-way set.

Okay, I think I am finally putting everything together and it is starting to make logical sense what everything is doing in the system. Here is where I am at...


1) The wiring goes...Speaker --> Amp --> DSP --> Head Unit. Correct?
1a) So...that means I will only be using 8 out of 12 inputs that the Virtuoso has, correct?
Question : What is that going to do to my rear 3-way's that are sharing one cable? Does it make sense to go ahead and put in a 3rd Mosconi 4ch amp so that I have 12 dedicated lines from each speaker --> the amp --> the DSP? Will this give me better sound? I feel like I am "wasting" the rear door 3-ways if I don't treat them the same as the fronts? The system is being built for me but I do have a family and would like it to sound as good as possible in the rear (without sacrificing anything in the front) so my daughter can belt out "We don't talk about Bruno"

2) Why would I go with the JL OEM integration over the Virtuoso?
- The Virtuoso has 12 (well 13 but I assume the 13th is for the sub?) inputs and the JL audio has a "Sub" "Front" "Rear"...So does the JL Audio device have less ability to customize the sound? Like the fronts can be done differently than the rears but you aren't getting individual sound tweaks from each speaker? Can you elaborate on the differences of these two pieces of hardware? The way I am understanding it, it is a "high tech & highly customizable" vs. "Plug & play" hardware. Is that a basic description? Or am I way off on what each device does and provides?

3) What do we do about the factory speakers that are still playing? There are speakers in the center dash (they were upgraded to Focals as well), heights above each seat and a pair in the rear. Is there any use trying to make them work with the system? I assume it would get VERY tricky at this point because they couldn't be feed into the DSP, right? So how would we do any sort of correction on them? Can they simply just "cut" them from the factory amp? Will I even need the Factory amp once the DSP is introduced?

4) At the end of the day - What is going to make my system sound the absolute best it can? Add a 3rd 4ch amp? Upgrade all the height/rear speakers, get amp(s) for them and run 2 DSPs? Probably not gonna go to that extent but is it even possible?


Sorry for repeating everything back to you in my own words but I am trying really hard to understand and really grasp what I am trying to do and what I should be trying to do. I appreciate everyones comments and advice. It has really opened up my eyes about the difference a 2-way setup with an aftermarket alpine deck was 10 years ago vs. what needs to be done in today's cars...expensive lesson but I am trying to learn on the first mistake and not allow another shop to lead me in the wrong direction.

 

[1aespinoza 10+ year member]

1) The wiring goes...Speaker --> Amp --> DSP --> Head Unit. Correct?

Yes.

1a) So...that means I will only be using 8 out of 12 inputs that the Virtuoso has, correct?

Yes.

What is that going to do to my rear 3-way's that are sharing one cable?

It will take nothing away from the quality sound that those brands are known for.

Does it make sense to go ahead and put in a 3rd Mosconi 4ch amp so that I have 12 dedicated lines from each speaker --> the amp --> the DSP? Will this give me better sound? I feel like I am "wasting" the rear door 3-ways if I don't treat them the same as the fronts?

The use of multiple channels allows you to lower the volume of the tweeters since you have them at ear level. Just attenuating the "treble" is not enough because the tweeter plays a wide upper range that the "treble" curve cannot encompass. So it is better to tailor the tweeter's optimum response, then lower the volume (gain) as a whole. This will save your ears and you from becoming a treble rebel. I know you've heard them, we all have. Same can be done with the midrange if you have a bit of trouble hearing certain notes. With the DSP you tailor it all.

The system is being built for me but I do have a family and would like it to sound as good as possible in the rear (without sacrificing anything in the front) so my daughter can belt out "We don't talk about Bruno"

Belly chuckle! Personal glimpses like this allows one to gauge a man's character. Way to go dad! Had to Youtube that song. It is really good. It accidentally got saved to a playlist and cannot be removed lest my phone explode or something. Safety first, I always say.

) Why would I go with the JL OEM integration over the Virtuoso?
- The Virtuoso has 12 (well 13 but I assume the 13th is for the sub?) inputs and the JL audio has a "Sub" "Front" "Rear"...So does the JL Audio device have less ability to customize the sound? Like the fronts can be done differently than the rears but you aren't getting individual sound tweaks from each speaker? Can you elaborate on the differences of these two pieces of hardware? The way I am understanding it, it is a "high tech & highly customizable" vs. "Plug & play" hardware. Is that a basic description? Or am I way off on what each device does and provides?

You are spot on with their abilities. Only reason I seconded the JL, is because I thought the shop might be "pushing" a more expensive unit, telling you, "This is the only way". Also, if the only issue with the new setup was sibilance, this is a more economical solution. From what I skimmed on the Virtuoso spec sheet, it has more tuning options than the JL, so be sure the shop has an experienced user of this unit. The JL gives six clean signals with EQ.

3) What do we do about the factory speakers that are still playing? There are speakers in the center dash (they were upgraded to Focals as well), heights above each seat and a pair in the rear. Is there any use trying to make them work with the system? I assume it would get VERY tricky at this point because they couldn't be feed into the DSP, right? So how would we do any sort of correction on them? Can they simply just "cut" them from the factory amp? Will I even need the Factory amp once the DSP is introduced?

I would just let them be. You may inadvertently disable warning chimes if you shut them down. But your installer will have better knowledge from experience on newer vehicles. Ask if they will "color" the sound of the new setup.

) At the end of the day - What is going to make my system sound the absolute best it can? Add a 3rd 4ch amp? Upgrade all the height/rear speakers, get amp(s) for them and run 2 DSPs? Probably not gonna go to that extent but is it even possible?

Adding a 3rd 4ch. would be best. For the simple reason of having complete individual control of everyone of those 13 speakers. Upgrading the rest of the speakers may be redundant. Disconnecting may be a better option, but ask your installer about warning chimes before making a decision.
Is it possible to add another DSP? Oh yeah. There is one limit, space.

Sorry for repeating everything back to you in my own words but I am trying really hard to understand and really grasp what I am trying to do and what I should be trying to do. I appreciate everyones comments and advice. It has really opened up my eyes about the difference a 2-way setup with an aftermarket alpine deck was 10 years ago vs. what needs to be done in today's cars...expensive lesson but I am trying to learn on the first mistake and not allow another shop to lead me in the wrong direction.

No apology needed. This thread has got me thinking of the complexity new car audiophiles face when wanting to upgrade. Made difficult by manufacturers using the headunit an integral part of vehicle support systems. Pretty sneaky, but cost saving since computing tasks can be handled by one unit instead of several.

 

[nicholas_r_d]

Belly chuckle! Personal glimpses like this allows one to gauge a man's character. Way to go dad! Had to Youtube that song. It is really good. It accidentally got saved to a playlist and cannot be removed lest my phone explode or something. Safety first, I always say.

The song comes from a Disney movie Encanto and my 5 year old LOVES that movie. I am just happy we are no longer in the Baby Shark phase!

You are spot on with their abilities. Only reason I seconded the JL, is because I thought the shop might be "pushing" a more expensive unit, telling you, "This is the only way". Also, if the only issue with the new setup was sibilance, this is a more economical solution. From what I skimmed on the Virtuoso spec sheet, it has more tuning options than the JL, so be sure the shop has an experienced user of this unit. The JL gives six clean signals with EQ.

Gotcha. They didn't say it was "the only way" but they did push it above anything else they floated around after looking at my setup. I do want the best/most customized setup possible, so I am okay with the Virtuoso even though it is about 4x the cost of the JL.

They have a guy there and all he does is tune cars and has been trained to setup the bit one HD among others. I (think) I have confidence in him being able to tune the vehicle correctly.

I would just let them be. You may inadvertently disable warning chimes if you shut them down. But your installer will have better knowledge from experience on newer vehicles. Ask if they will "color" the sound of the new setup.

Could the installers turn the "volume" down on all of those stock speakers? They sit within 6 inches of your ear and most of the time (after the first after market sound system install) I can hear them MORE than any other speaker in the car. They come through "first"...it is cool when I am listening to a podcast (makes it feel much more "full") but when it is music, the speakers are now more of a distraction, rather than helping "fill" the sound in the cabin.

I will speak with the installers and see what my options are.

I did a quick google search on "coloring" sound...follow up question. What if they say "yes"? Is that a good thing? Should I ask them to "color" it if they say no? This is a whole new thing to me, so can you give me a quick "coloring for dummies" so I better understand what I want/or don't want? I assume I do not want any "coloring" done?

Adding a 3rd 4ch. would be best. For the simple reason of having complete individual control of everyone of those 13 speakers. Upgrading the rest of the speakers may be redundant. Disconnecting may be a better option, but ask your installer about warning chimes before making a decision.
Is it possible to add another DSP? Oh yeah. There is one limit, space.

SO...Lets go a little crazy (on paper anyway)...assume I have the space (because I kinda do)...
There are 4 sets of speakers in the ceiling above each persons head (dual 40mm speakers)
There are 2 sets of speakers in the very back (25mm tweet & 80mm mid)
There is 1 set in the front center dash (25mm & 2x100mm - these have already been upgraded)

How would you power these speakers? How would you DSP them?
There are 7 cables that would need to be run at minimum (1 cable for each "set")
Would you choose to run 7 cables into an 8ch amp and then to a bit One (8 port version)