My thoughts on the detriot big 3

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

The issue now is that if you take away the funding for the pensions of people who counted on it being there, how are those people going to live now? I would guess the tax payer will still foot that bill in the end. It is a complex issue that is not as easy to fix as pointing a finger.
Current employees making a very good living driving a forklift with 20+ years in are going to be fawked. They are a few years away from retiring and are going to get the biggest portion of the shaft. Not only are they going to have to work for a smaller wage today, but they might not even get a fully vested pension either that they were promised. I feel for those people. They are not entitled per se, but they made plans based on the assumption that they had a very good wage and pension ahead.

BTW, the Lions ****, but you already knew that. I do hope with all my might that they beat the Vikings this week though. The Williams Wall should become the Williams Hole. Please Lord let it be.

BEAR DOWN!

True, it's not the workers fault per se, more so the union that drove up the pay scales. I'd feel bad for them, but if something isn't done then the whole COUNTRY is fucked. Somebody is going to get the shaft and I don't think it should be people that have nothing to do with the UAW or automakers. It's not my fault that the UAW and big 3 are incompetent. They should have seen this coming from a mile away once foreign automakers started taking over the market.

Either you adapt and survive or you die. I guess the UAW would rather die.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

And until the UAW gets off their pedestal, then that is whats exactly going to happen. Get the wages down to reasonable levels and perhaps GM won't have to go under. I guess they'd rather have everyone get laid off then be proven wrong?
If he can't name any specific examples then obviously he just wants to keep giving everyone in the UAW fat paychecks until they FIAL completely and then they're all really screwed.

Damn unions.

I think it was Bob Corker, the TN senator that suggested the gov help the big 3 negotiate their debt to .xx on the dollar with their creditors, the UAW matches wages to transplant auto builders wages, and they help negotiate prices with their suppliers to try and get back to manageable bottom line. Once that comprimise was made then they would dole out the bailout.

Great idea in my eyes. But stingy fukrs will keep that from happening. They would rather save themselves instead of their ship.

When I hired with my company over 10 years ago I was promised a pension, education reimbursement, etc which has sense been cut. I would much rather lose my pension than lose both my job and my pension...

 

[loopkiller 10+ year member]

True, it's not the workers fault per se, more so the union that drove up the pay scales. I'd feel bad for them, but if something isn't done then the whole COUNTRY is fucked. Somebody is going to get the shaft and I don't think it should be people that have nothing to do with the UAW or automakers. It's not my fault that the UAW and big 3 are incompetent. They should have seen this coming from a mile away once foreign automakers started taking over the market.
Either you adapt and survive or you die. I guess the UAW would rather die.

I agree with everything you have said, but would add that the cost to the public should GM fail would be much more than to bail them out. That is if you believe the economist that testified before the Senate today, which I do.

 

[loopkiller 10+ year member]

I think it was Bob Corker, the TN senator that suggested the gov help the big 3 negotiate their debt to .xx on the dollar with their creditors, the UAW matches wages to transplant auto builders wages, and they help negotiate prices with their suppliers to try and get back to manageable bottom line. Once that comprimise was made then they would dole out the bailout.
Great idea in my eyes. But stingy fukrs will keep that from happening. They would rather save themselves instead of their ship.

Every faction except GM is going to resist the changes neccessary. The UAW will say we already gave concessions the last 3 years. The bond holders will wait until the 11th hour to conceed any reduction in value. The suppliers will make every cent they can. The dealers are going to resist consolidation. But somewhere in all of that BS, there will be major changes at each level. The question is will it be GM is gone forever and they all now get ZERO, or will they come to the table, accept 50% and move forward? To be continued.

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

I agree with everything you have said, but would add that the cost to the public should GM fail would be much more than to bail them out. That is if you believe the economist that testified before the Senate today, which I do.

I don't want GM to fail any more than the next person. I would like them to do whatever it takes, but I wouldn't give them a dime until they restructured employee costs and benefits to a reasonable level.

Why give GM billions of dollars just so they can continue overpaying their workers and be in the same situation farther down the road?

I think the UAW needs to bite the bullet and do what needs to be done. Otherwise there's going to be a lot of people with ZERO income.

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

Every faction except GM is going to resist the changes neccessary. The UAW will say we already gave concessions the last 3 years. The bond holders will wait until the 11th hour to conceed any reduction in value. The suppliers will make every cent they can. The dealers are going to resist consolidation. But somewhere in all of that BS, there will be major changes at each level. The question is will it be GM is gone forever and they all now get ZERO, or will they come to the table, accept 50% and move forward? To be continued.

Thats one ultimatem Corker put out that I really liked but didn't seem to catch on in the hearing: "Will you 3 agree to taking the first 34 million to stay afloat then you come back the end of March and if your company, the uaw, your creditors, suppliers, etc don't meet their negotiations you agree to immediately declare bankruptcy the next day"

That should have made it concrete for everybody including the UAW that they would need to do some hefty compromising or lose the whole enchilada...unfortunately it didn't appear any of them are taking this siriusly.

 

[loopkiller 10+ year member]

I don't want GM to fail any more than the next person. I would like them to do whatever it takes, but I wouldn't give them a dime until they restructured employee costs and benefits to a reasonable level.
Why give GM billions of dollars just so they can continue overpaying their workers and be in the same situation farther down the road?

I agree 100% and that scenario will not happen. There will be no blank check. They will fail before that happens.

 

[Lugnutz 10+ year member]

Everyone here knows whats going on with GM / Ford / Chrysler and how theyre beggin for money because they think the business is gonna go down the ****ter. But honestly? do they really give a**** what happens? Stop trying to Bull****, we all know the CEO's of those companys make like 30 million a year salaries so really what the hell does it matter to them as people? No matter what happens theyre gonna be rich, instead of dealing with all the bullcrap why not just quit and walk away from all the problems and still have like 200 million in the bank its not like your gonna run out of money just retire and call it quits. AS PEOPLE they are fine no matter what happens even if the business goes bankrupt.
Seriously if i was in there position and kept getting criticized by congress and 20 different news agencys about what i do, ide just quit and take my 200 mill i got in the bank from my salarys over the years and just retire at 40 years old and never work again in my life. Regarldess of what happens with the business itself, you **** sure know that the CEOs have there own ***** covered financially no matter what happens

Actually dumb ****, Rick Wagoner's salary is 2.2 million, and he agreed to only receive $1 salary. he also agreed to leave GM if it meant saving the company.

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

I agree 100% and that scenario will not happen. There will be no blank check. They will fail before that happens.

Which will be quite unfortunate when/if that happens.

I find it amazing that the UAW would rather fail completely then compromise and save everyone's ***. Talk about some screwed up ideologies.

 

[Remus33 10+ year member]

Irony: GM purposely kills the electric car in the 90's and look how it boomeranged..

One of them has to go! the market share left after the Japanese and Koreans is too small for all three to survive.

 

[Lugnutz 10+ year member]

Did they give any specifics on the "concessions" they made? Somehow I doubt that they are really under the gun here.
I think the unions are partly to blame for the big 3 tanking. Their pay scales are out of control. Under no circumstances should some assembly line worker or forklift driver be clearing $100k a year, I don't care how long you've been there.

I would think they would realize that if they don't cut back on their wages then there will be NO wages because the company will be gone.

They do not make 100k, they do not even get close to that. The UAW has agreed to absorb the legacy costs for the big 3 plus healthcare for a one time payment from each company. Only Ford has made their contribution. The UAW has cut retirees benefits. They cut new hires salary. Gettelfinger said he will open the contract. Retirees only get $1100-1400 a month from the big 3. The big 3 was suppose to put aside contributions every week for each employee for the 30 years they were there. What happened to this fund?

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

They do not make 100k, they do not even get close to that. The UAW has agreed to absorb the legacy costs for the big 3 plus healthcare for a one time payment from each company. Only Ford has made their contribution. The UAW has cut retirees benefits. They cut new hires salary. Gettelfinger said he will open the contract. Retirees only get $1100-1400 a month from the big 3. The big 3 was suppose to put aside contributions every week for each employee for the 30 years they were there. What happened to this fund?

Good question.

But before we get off track, what does an average assembly line worker who has been there 10 years make? $30k? $50k?

$100k was just a bit of an exaggeration, I realize it's not that much.

Where does it stop?

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

They do not make 100k, they do not even get close to that. The UAW has agreed to absorb the legacy costs for the big 3 plus healthcare for a one time payment from each company. Only Ford has made their contribution. The UAW has cut retirees benefits. They cut new hires salary. Gettelfinger said he will open the contract. Retirees only get $1100-1400 a month from the big 3. The big 3 was suppose to put aside contributions every week for each employee for the 30 years they were there. What happened to this fund?

I was supposed to get a pension when I retire and got boned out of it. For existing workers they can stop it if the UAW would let them. For retiree's they have to pay up which they agreed to do in 2010 for the legacy part, and is part of the negotiations to equitize part of it (which I don't agree with)

 

[Lugnutz 10+ year member]

Good question.
But before we get off track, what does an average assembly line worker who has been there 10 years make? $30k? $50k?

$100k was just a bit of an exaggeration, I realize it's not that much.

Where does it stop?

New hires start at $14 an hour. The ones that everybody is *****ing at, are the workers who have been there 25 years who make $29 an hour. $29 an hour is the max.

 

[Lugnutz 10+ year member]

I was supposed to get a pension when I retire and got boned out of it. For existing workers they can stop it if the UAW would let them. For retiree's they have to pay up which they agreed to do in 2010 for the legacy part, and is part of the negotiations to equitize part of it (which I don't agree with)

The new hires aren't going to get a pension from the big 3. Why should people who worked there for 30 years and are retired have to give up their pension in which they promised back in the 70's?