Hey you evolutionists...

You're still not fully understanding the point.
I won't believe in anything until I have reasonable evidence to suggest it is true. Any person can make a claim, but until there is positive evidence supporting it, I will remain skeptical.

My disbelief of god is not a choice, or a denial of anything; it is an appraisal of all the evidence that has been put before me. Part of the reason why I continue to have the god conversation is because I'd like to find a reasonable explanation for why so many people believe what they do, and I really have yet to hear a sound argument.
Are you aware of the intelligent design movement? I think you would find some of your answers there. Also, have you read "Mere Christianity"? I think you would have quite a difficult time proving C.S. Lewis's arguments to be unsound. I look forward to your open minded response. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

Unlike the religious, I am open to changing my mind when the evidence supports a different position. Evolution is a favourite of mine because it is so strong and misunderstood but I would drop it in a second if there was something more plausible, or if it was demonstrated as false.
Your condescending generalizations aside, I find it ironic that belief in the theory of evolution has become a key component of your world view, yet you consider your position superior to those who put their belief in the "god" theory. Would you care to explain how Evolutionary Theory is superior to the God Theory?
Anything that I don't know the answer to, I will acknowledge as unknown although I may put forth the different ideas that might explain it.
I like to do the same.

It is not an assumption; you must have had a poor history and science education if you think any of it corroborates a particular faith and god as "real".
On the contrary, if a religion claims that certain events happened and those events can be established as happening, history can corroborate the claims of such a religion. Likewise, if a religion claims that the earth was created and there is a level of complexity discovered in the earth by science that leaves no other option besides creation, I believe that science would then corroborate the claims of that religion.
 
I fail to see how a lack of evidence can be viewed as evidence. If you were asked to provide evidence in order to support your case in a court of law and you presented a lack of evidence as evidence, you would be laughed out of the building.
Also, I think it is just plain silly to assume that faith cannot be supported by evidence. I know that my own faith faith is corroborated by both historical and scientific fact.
Your looking at this from the wrong direction, and i think its because the word atheism causing confusion. Using your analogy, imagine your on a jury and the prosecutor is trying to convict someone of a crime with very little evidence. Your not sure whether or not the person is guilty because all youve been presented with is a minimal amount of circumstantial evidence. Now imagine that prosecutor standing in front of you talking about his 'faith' in the defense's guilt. His 'faith' has informed him of the defense's guilt and the members of the jury will be able to see this guilt if they too can find the faith in their hearts. The definition of faith is "a belief that is not based on proof." So has the prosecutor really met the burden of "proof beyond a reasonable doubt?"

It should be obvious that the most intellectually honest thing you can do is admit that you simply dont know if the defendant is guilty or not. This is what most atheists are doing in regard to religious claims. The problem is these words atheism and agnoctism confuse people. So if i call myself an atheist people think im claiming that there IS NO god. The truth is that my atheism towards god is the same as your athiesm towards fairies. You dont believe in fairies just like i dont believe in god but its not that fairies are impossible, there just isnt any really good reason to believe such a profound claim about the world.

 
Are you aware of the intelligent design movement? I think you would find some of your answers there.
Your condescending generalizations aside, I find it ironic that belief in the theory of evolution has become a key component of your world view, yet you consider your position superior to those who put their belief in the "god" theory. Would you care to explain how Evolutionary Theory is superior to the God Theory?

I like to do the same.
Its ironic that you bring up ID after your courtroom analogy.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

Watch this. it will should answer all your questions.

Excerpts from the decision in Dover v Kitzmiller (ID on trial)

The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.
After a searching review of the record and applicable caselaw, we find that while ID arguments may be true, a proposition on which the Court takes no position, ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID's negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community.
 
Your condescending generalizations aside, I find it ironic that belief in the theory of evolution has become a key component of your world view, yet you consider your position superior to those who put their belief in the "god" theory. Would you care to explain how Evolutionary Theory is superior to the God Theory?

I like to do the same.
This is the religious' favorite little thing to do, point out that evolution is a theory. What they fail to understand is that basically everything short of mathematics is a theory. Gravity, time, energy, etc. are all theories...yet you have no problem believing in them. There is no "god theory"...you know why? Because there is NO evidence for a god in order to back up that theory. Evolution on the other hand, has an extensive amount of evidence for it, which is why it's regarded as a theory, and not just a "good feeling."

 
This is the religious' favorite little thing to do, point out that evolution is a theory. What they fail to understand is that basically everything short of mathematics is a theory. Gravity, time, energy, etc. are all theories...yet you have no problem believing in them. There is no "god theory"...you know why? Because there is NO evidence for a god in order to back up that theory. Evolution on the other hand, has an extensive amount of evidence for it, which is why it's regarded as a theory, and not just a "good feeling."
Futhermore, there is no commitment to the theory of evolution. If a theory of Flipx99 come along and provides a better explanation with strong evidence, the theory of evolution will be an afterthought.

 
Are you aware of the intelligent design movement? I think you would find some of your answers there.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of us here are aware of the ID movement (it was actually discussed some about 5 pages back). As indicated above in the wonderful PBS show of the Dover trial, ID is nothing but creationism relabeled and most of it's "supporting arguments" have been discredited by actual scientists.

My question to you is; Have you ever tried to understand the problems associated with the ID movement?

Also, have you read "Mere Christianity"? I think you would have quite a difficult time proving C.S. Lewis's arguments to be unsound. I look forward to your open minded response. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif
I haven't read the book, but I read a preview via google (so some pages were missing), but the opening chapter seemed to be arguing that 1) Humans have a Moral Law instilled in them from God, and 2) God gives actions the condition of "right" and "wrong" through this Moral Law.

A philosopher many years ago had investigated this issue (can't remember who it was off hand); Are morals right because God commands it, or does god command them because they are right? Either answer here can create a problem for the theist.

Your condescending generalizations aside, I find it ironic that belief in the theory of evolution has become a key component of your world view, yet you consider your position superior to those who put their belief in the "god" theory. Would you care to explain how Evolutionary Theory is superior to the God Theory?
You apparently do not understand what a scientific theory is. The Theory of Evolution and Natural Selection, and the "God Theory" are on anything but equal footing simply because they both have the word "theory" in them.

Scientific theory, in short, is a testable hypothesis that is supported by empirical data, scientific facts and observations. They are constructed to explain the data, are supported by the evidence, and can be used to make future predictions. If a theory does not explain the evidence or data, is not testable, or it's predictions are wrong....then it fails the test and it's discarded. Theories are continually being tested for accuracy.

The "God Theory" has none of the above.

On the contrary, if a religion claims that certain events happened and those events can be established as happening, history can corroborate the claims of such a religion.
Historical events will not necessarily validate the claims of religion. For example, evidence of a man named Jesus who lived 2000 years ago and was crucified at the age of 33 will not validate the claim that he 1) is the son of god, or 2) performed miracles.

Likewise, if a religion claims that the earth was created and there is a level of complexity discovered in the earth by science that leaves no other option besides creation, I believe that science would then corroborate the claims of that religion.
"Level of complexity" is not very compelling evidence (with a statement like that it seems evident you believe in the ID propoganda). There is plenty we know today that our ancestors no doubt could have only thought possible by an intelligent designer....but we know it today to be a matter of, well, matter.

David Hume saw the flaws in the "argument from design" (an a posteriori argument) some 250 years ago.

Science, by definition, can not appeal to an intelligent agent and the idea of an intelligent designer can not be, by definition, a scientific theory.

 
I was thinking on my way to work this morning.....Creationist/etc like to point out how the universe is suited exactly for life to exist. As Neil pointed out earlier, the anthropic principle states the obvious; Of course the universe is suitable for life otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe it. The very fact we are here to observe it requires that the universe be suitable for our lifeforms to have developed.

IMO, the creationists are going about it the wrong way. Instead of attempting to prove how well suited for life the universe is.....they need to be proving how unsuitable for life the universe is. Nothing would blow my mind more than it requiring a miracle for us to exist. Gravitation too weak for our planet to be held together. The strong force having been too weak for particles to form. The physics of the sun simply impossible. God bending the laws of physics special just for us. That would be impressive evidence to have on your side!

And yet...here we are, surrounded by a universe constrained by physical laws that look exactly how we would expect them to look in order for the universe to sustain life forms such as ourselves. Nothing to see here folks, keep moving along.........

 
I was thinking on my way to work this morning.....Creationist/etc like to point out how the universe is suited exactly for life to exist. As Neil pointed out earlier, the anthropic principle states the obvious; Of course the universe is suitable for life otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe it. The very fact we are here to observe it requires that the universe be suitable for our lifeforms to have developed.
IMO, the creationists are going about it the wrong way. Instead of attempting to prove how well suited for life the universe is.....they need to be proving how unsuitable for life the universe is. Nothing would blow my mind more than it requiring a miracle for us to exist. Gravitation too weak for our planet to be held together. The strong force having been too weak for particles to form. The physics of the sun simply impossible. God bending the laws of physics special just for us. That would be impressive evidence to have on your side!

And yet...here we are, surrounded by a universe constrained by physical laws that look exactly how we would expect them to look in order for the universe to sustain life forms such as ourselves. Nothing to see here folks, keep moving along.........

Neil deGrasse Tyson - Stupid Design

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1cKD93W3yg

 
I was thinking on my way to work this morning.....Creationist/etc like to point out how the universe is suited exactly for life to exist. As Neil pointed out earlier, the anthropic principle states the obvious; Of course the universe is suitable for life otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe it. The very fact we are here to observe it requires that the universe be suitable for our lifeforms to have developed.
IMO, the creationists are going about it the wrong way. Instead of attempting to prove how well suited for life the universe is.....they need to be proving how unsuitable for life the universe is. Nothing would blow my mind more than it requiring a miracle for us to exist. Gravitation too weak for our planet to be held together. The strong force having been too weak for particles to form. The physics of the sun simply impossible. God bending the laws of physics special just for us. That would be impressive evidence to have on your side!

And yet...here we are, surrounded by a universe constrained by physical laws that look exactly how we would expect them to look in order for the universe to sustain life forms such as ourselves. Nothing to see here folks, keep moving along.........
Well fomulated me likey and have never thought about it this way A+

 
I was thinking on my way to work this morning.....Creationist/etc like to point out how the universe is suited exactly for life to exist. As Neil pointed out earlier, the anthropic principle states the obvious; Of course the universe is suitable for life otherwise we wouldn't be here to observe it. The very fact we are here to observe it requires that the universe be suitable for our lifeforms to have developed.
IMO, the creationists are going about it the wrong way. Instead of attempting to prove how well suited for life the universe is.....they need to be proving how unsuitable for life the universe is. Nothing would blow my mind more than it requiring a miracle for us to exist. Gravitation too weak for our planet to be held together. The strong force having been too weak for particles to form. The physics of the sun simply impossible. God bending the laws of physics special just for us. That would be impressive evidence to have on your side!

And yet...here we are, surrounded by a universe constrained by physical laws that look exactly how we would expect them to look in order for the universe to sustain life forms such as ourselves. Nothing to see here folks, keep moving along.........
Whose to say that a creator didn't create this universe only suitable for humans to live? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif The laws of physics you claim lie solely in the framework of this universe. If a creator did create the universe, would that same creator not create the laws of physics? How do you know a "miracle" isn't occurring?

 
Whose to say that a creator didn't create this universe only suitable for humans to live? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif The laws of physics you claim lie solely in the framework of this universe. If a creator did create the universe, would that same creator not create the laws of physics? How do you know a "miracle" isn't occurring?
If a creator did create the universe, he created it in such a way that a logical and rational observer investigating the natural laws that govern it would come to the conclusion, based on the evidence, that it is purely natural. No supernatural agent necessary. If the universe appears to operate on purely natural laws that do not require a supernatural agent, why presume there is one?

You are playing "what if" guessing games. And I think you missed my point entirely.

 
If a creator did create the universe, he created it in such a way that a logical and rational observer investigating the natural laws that govern it would come to the conclusion, based on the evidence, that it is purely natural. No supernatural agent necessary. If the universe appears to operate on purely natural laws that do not require a supernatural agent, why presume there is one?
You are playing "what if" guessing games. And I think you missed my point entirely.
If a creator did create the universe, would the creator not have created the "natural laws"? Maybe what we take as "natural" laws are the miracle in itself.

 
I love this thread. Most of my arguments against ID and the like have already been addressed, so I present you with one of my favourite pictures of high school Biology:

Richardson1.gif


 
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