Finally picked up a clamp meter and tested my zx...

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

Saying amp "x" put up this score with my setup and amp "y" put up that score with my setup is great and an awesome way to look at amps for certain situations.

Is that not exactly what I'm doing?

Finding what works for MY situation? Did I say somewhere that everyone should expect similar results?

 

[teamsubgopoof]

And EVERY SINGLE DESIGNER behind the amps used understands the difference.
Saying amp "x" put up this score with my setup and amp "y" put up that score with my setup is great and an awesome way to look at amps for certain situations. Taking this method to say what kind of power your amp does is just not correct no matter how many people do it and say it's right.

its a comparison of differnt amps in MY INSTALL

what you do or any other kid on the street does means jack to me.

What it lets me know is if I....

1) Made an SPL gain and lost power because of a change in impedence rise

2) Lost SPL and have a huge loss in power because of higher impedence rise

3) Gained SPL because of changing impedence of woofers or loading of woofers in turning lowering impedence rise

you say its not a true form of measuring, sure ok its not even close to the real way of measuring "watts"

what y ou need to understand that when WE (Competitors) measure power we aren't measuring to sell an amp, to perfect a design, or anything similar to that, we are measuring to tune our setups to peak out.

Build a loud spl car, then you can tell me all about the theories you used in them.

Until then the theories are just that, theories that might be right on a test or in a textbook, but mean jack shit in car audio and SPL

 

[matrxx dude 5,000+ posts]

dude im a serious db drag competitor,and the only meter i pay attention to and check numbers on is the term lab,because that is the numbers that matter.

 

[delvryboy 5,000+ posts]

Because, at least if you put it around the input wire you'd be in the general ballpark accounting for efficiency losses...

I wasn't going to enter this shit fest, but wtf are you talking about?//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/*******.gif.a649d21efc0d1fd4890a6428166586c1.gif

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

dude im a serious db drag competitor,and the only meter i pay attention to and check numbers on is the term lab,because that is the numbers that matter.

I had my termlab running at the time as well. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Didn't keep track of the numbers though because I was more concerned about getting the amp dialed in.

 

[delvryboy 5,000+ posts]

And EVERY SINGLE DESIGNER behind the amps used understands the difference.
Saying amp "x" put up this score with my setup and amp "y" put up that score with my setup is great and an awesome way to look at amps for certain situations.

I'm pretty sure this was the goal of the test....

 

[Immacomputer 10+ year member]

Theories only bring you to a certain point. In THEORY, doubling the power should add 3 dB. In THEORY quite a few things should always work. Now you and I both know that's hardly the case.
See, a purely resistive load is NOT going to act like a subwoofer. That's a lie. When a subwoofer moves, it generates air pressure, which is going to change the way the woofer acts. Is a resistive load going to do that? No, it's going to sit there and act completely uniform through the entire test.

Not to mention the vehicle itself. Why do you think I get different test results when I brace the car or open a door or window? That kind of shit isn't going to happen on a test bench, yet all of these things can and WILL affect power output.

See where I'm coming from?

In your understanding, the theory says that there will be a 3dB gain from doubling power but there is FAR more to the theory of power than gets thrown around on forums. Theory states that energy in equals energy out. Much of that energy will be lost as heat though.

You're not understanding me. The power that is measured on a purely resistive load is the power the sub will see. Period.

Will the sub act like a resistive load? HELL NO! Why? Because it's not purely resistive! When the sub moves and pressurizes the cabin, there will capacitance and inductance involved. This will cause rises and drops in voltage and current. When you measure the voltage and current, you will see this and it will appear to be actual power but it is NOT. The sub is still seeing the same power that would be given into the purely resistive load.

I have seen this on a scope many times. I have made crossovers where I input a 5v signal yet I can measure a 9v peak with an AC source. Am I making some sort of perpetual motion device? No, I'm just seeing the effects of inductors and capacitors in a circuit. The high VA readings are the same thing. You may think that it's not theoretical but I assure you it is. If theory is wrong, somebody didn't take everything into consideration.

 

[teamsubgopoof]

dude im a serious db drag competitor,and the only meter i pay attention to and check numbers on is the term lab,because that is the numbers that matter.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

and that is all that matters, but how do you peak out your system?

what do you think is happening when your tuning the enclosure? Your not only tuning for the woofers, your tuning for the amps to manipulate impedence rise

sometimes its the oddball tuning that ends up being the loudest on the meter, not because of the effect on spl on the woofer side, but because you've changed your reactive load in such a way that your getting A LOT more power to your woofers

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

In your understanding, the theory says that there will be a 3dB gain from doubling power but there is FAR more to the theory of power than gets thrown around on forums. Theory states that energy in equals energy out. Much of that energy will be lost as heat though.

Energy in is not necessarily going to equal energy out.

That's where enclosure design, alignment, and cabin gain can come into play.

I can throw 3000 watts into a sub in a certain box, and put 2000 watts to the same sub in a different box, and be 3 dB louder.

Once again, theories only get you so far in determining what works the best for ONE PARTICULAR SETUP.

So, even though I'm doing testing wrong in your opinion, if I was to test all future amps in a similar way (with similar results) would that not be a valid way of testing? Even if it is "wrong"?

 

[matrxx dude 5,000+ posts]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
and that is all that matters, but how do you peak out your system?

what do you think is happening when your tuning the enclosure? Your not only tuning for the woofers, your tuning for the amps to manipulate impedence rise

sometimes its the oddball tuning that ends up being the loudest on the meter, not because of the effect on spl on the woofer side, but because you've changed your reactive load in such a way that your getting A LOT more power to your woofers

oh i agree with you totally,i was just stating a major factor.

 

[teamsubgopoof]

In your understanding, the theory says that there will be a 3dB gain from doubling power but there is FAR more to the theory of power than gets thrown around on forums. Theory states that energy in equals energy out. Much of that energy will be lost as heat though.
You're not understanding me. The power that is measured on a purely resistive load is the power the sub will see. Period.

Will the sub act like a resistive load? HELL NO! Why? Because it's not purely resistive! When the sub moves and pressurizes the cabin, there will capacitance and inductance involved. This will cause rises and drops in voltage and current. When you measure the voltage and current, you will see this and it will appear to be actual power but it is NOT. The sub is still seeing the same power that would be given into the purely resistive load.

by what you just said, there is no way to test real power in car, because you'd have to figure out the inductance and and capacitance going on...

which is why we test with voltamps because its the easiest way to do it and have a comparable scale to go with

 

[Immacomputer 10+ year member]

its a comparison of differnt amps in MY INSTALL
what you do or any other kid on the street does means jack to me.

What it lets me know is if I....

1) Made an SPL gain and lost power because of a change in impedence rise

2) Lost SPL and have a huge loss in power because of higher impedence rise

3) Gained SPL because of changing impedence of woofers or loading of woofers in turning lowering impedence rise

you say its not a true form of measuring, sure ok its not even close to the real way of measuring "watts"

what y ou need to understand that when WE (Competitors) measure power we aren't measuring to sell an amp, to perfect a design, or anything similar to that, we are measuring to tune our setups to peak out.

Build a loud spl car, then you can tell me all about the theories you used in them.

Until then the theories are just that, theories that might be right on a test or in a textbook, but mean jack shit in car audio and SPL

If you know this is true (the bold section) why do you bother posting? That's what and all I have been saying all along. This is no way to measure actual power.

I have no problem with using this for your own SPL testing -- it doesn't bother me at all. I am bothered when threads are made saying, "look what kind of power my amp puts out!" and then has false information.

If you think the theoretical world is different than the real world, you just don't have a complete understanding of the theories. This world obeys the laws of physics... where do you think these theories come from? Oh that's right.. it's all physics. And trust me, car audio is NOT beyond the realms of physics.

 

[matrxx dude 5,000+ posts]

justin and tommy its not worth it.lol

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

If you know this is true (the bold section) why do you bother posting? That's what and all I have been saying all along. This is no way to measure actual power.
I have no problem with using this for your own SPL testing -- it doesn't bother me at all. I am bothered when threads are made saying, "look what kind of power my amp puts out!" and then has false information.

If you think the theoretical world is different than the real world, you just don't have a complete understanding of the theories. This world obeys the laws of physics... where do you think these theories come from? Oh that's right.. it's all physics. And trust me, car audio is NOT beyond the realms of physics.

Until I see you put these theories into practice, and get 100% perfect results as your theories would have you believe, its all completely bunk.

Now you say that the vehicle will act as capacitence and inductance much like a purely resistive load. How in the HELL would you figure that out?

Guess what, you can't. Thus why nobody uses that form of testing for figuring out in-car power. It's completely pointless and a waste of time. You have to remember that I'm an SPL guy at heart. I do what works to get loud. Even if you could figure out the inductance and capacitence generated by the cabin, I will have figured out that putting an angle in a certain corner of the box gains me 1.5 dB, making your efforts completely futile.

 

[Immacomputer 10+ year member]

Energy in is not necessarily going to equal energy out.
That's where enclosure design, alignment, and cabin gain can come into play.

I can throw 3000 watts into a sub in a certain box, and put 2000 watts to the same sub in a different box, and be 3 dB louder.

Once again, theories only get you so far in determining what works the best for ONE PARTICULAR SETUP.

So, even though I'm doing testing wrong in your opinion, if I was to test all future amps in a similar way (with similar results) would that not be a valid way of testing? Even if it is "wrong"?

Energy in will ALWAYS equal energy out. Again, this MUST be true. If you don't get this result, you're missing some form of loss. That extra 1000watts could easily be transferred to heat altering your impedance which would alter the alignment and the score.

Once again, if the theories don't line up, there are flaws in the analysis and NOT the theories. Please realize that we are humans and we are not perfect.

I never said that using your method like this is wrong for comparison against two amps (in fact I just said that I thought that was great). I DID say that the way you presented the data is wrong. I don't understand how you don't see that.