OP
got_focus?
10+ year member
Skeet Skeet Skeet
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- #16
Any reason to go with the Eminence over the Selenium 8"?
Door Glassing time! Which speakers?
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got_focus?
galacticmonkey
5,000+ posts
Wants a button like that.
Ive been running Eminence for years, heard a ton of both. I prefer Eminence speakers and Selenium tweeters and horns. Ive always been very satisfied with both, so never changed.
OP
got_focus?
10+ year member
Skeet Skeet Skeet
- Thread Starter
- #18
I am leaning towards doing a Morel Tempo 6 mid and ?????
At your request via PM, I've taken a moment to comment on your project.
I tend to refrain from advising a person as to which drivers to buy because everyone's taste is different. More importantly, the install has a greater affect in the long run so driver choice becomes just an ingredient in the recipe. With that said, I never use car audio drivers in my vehicles. For the last fifteen years I've use home audio drivers such as Seas, Vifa, Eton, Dynaudio, etc... One reason is because I like to select the individual performance characteristics for each driver. Another is that I've always run active setups so I never needed the passive crossovers that come with component sets. Yet another reason is because by the time I've purchased the drivers separately, I've saved quite a bit of money over the cost of a complete set of components (assuming I was going to buy a nice set to begin with), always with a higher degree of performance. Again, that's mostly contributed to the actual application of those drivers rather than just the driver's abilities.
On that note, what I would suggest to you is to buy a wide band 8" driver, one that could be used in a two-way in a home setup. Something with a response profile that works from about 30hz to 3khz. Here's one example of many; http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-040
With that 8" you should get a large format tweeter that can handle a low crossover point of about 1.5khz to 2khz. Here's one example of a few; http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=276-608
These are just examples to point you in the right direction, I'm not saying to go out and buy those.
Once you have the drivers you feel good about, put your greatest efforts into the installation itself. Make it strong and structural and quiet, parasitic resonances have a huge impact on the finished product and will lead to failure and your unhappiness.
Once the install is complete and solid, every driver should have solid power behind it. Yes even the tweeters, lol. Deck power on the tweeters makes the baby Jesus cry. Tweeters are at the greatest risk of being blown while they are receiving clipped power and you will most certainly be faced with that dilemma using deck power. They need a solid, clean amount of power (classic A/B amplifiers come to mind) without anything else on the circuit with them, no woofers, no crossovers. Just the amplifier and the tweeter.
Once you have good power behind each driver, take all the time in the world to tune the system. Obviously, this means applying crossover points and EQ. I like to EQ in two phases (yes that requires two EQs). If you have a head unit with an EQ built-in, that's good enough for the second phase but the first phase requires a nice one with lots of bands. Set everything to zero on the head unit and turn off the loudness contour before beginning. The first phase is to get the flattest response from each driver within it's working limits. Not just the intended pass band, but the entire range of the driver. It's important for the driver to have flat response, even in the area that the crossover filter will be applied. Otherwise the intended slope will not be accurate. You can't apply crossovers to drivers that have crazy uneven response and hope to get a good looking slope, nor can you accurately set levels between drivers with huge peaks and dips in the response.
Once you have a flat response profile for each driver you can set the level between them for a proper match. This is very important and, once set, should be left alone due to the fact that once you apply your filters with good results for phase and frequency, any adjustment you make to the level of any driver will destroy that. You will drive the crossover point up or down and you will change the phase behavior in the transition region.
Be sure that the absolute polarity on each driver is positive to begin with. You can adjust them later if you feel the need to but start with every driver in positive phase. Verify it with a battery, you won't hurt the drivers. FYI, it's a fact that there are waveforms in nature and music that have only positive halves so reversing the polarity on any driver solely to get a good phase match in the transition region will not preserve those waveforms, it will invert them. Though you may not be able to tell instantly, it's things like these that tell your ear/brain system you're not listening to the real thing. Listening fatigue is similar. At first you think; "wow these highs are crisp and there's so much presence and that bass is so strong" but before you know it, you no longer want to listen to it as loud or not at all. Try, at all costs, to leave all the drivers in positive polarity.
Once you have good response and level behavior from the drivers, you can apply the filters. Cross low and try different slopes. Don't cross too shallow (6dB) with a low point, it's very demanding on the drivers. You can also try asymmetrical slopes to help preserve the positive polarity of the drivers if you aren't having any luck with the phase behavior. A 18dB/12dB mix works well sometimes or, you can always use 24dB/24dB. Remember, you'll be applying EQ again later so if it doesn't sound the best yet, don't give up.
Once you're happy with the filters you've applied, it should start to sound pretty good but may need some polishing by way of a final EQ. Take a look at the Fletcher-Munson curve and EQ with that in mind. Bring down the levels where your ear is most sensitive and see how things sound to you. Don't boost any frequencies yet, only cut. By cutting, you are relatively boosting other frequencies but not demanding anything extra from your amplifiers. It should sound natural without being strident. Give it time in between adjustments and don't adjust too drastically. Baby steps, as it's been said.
I know this is a lot more than you were asking for but by no means is it a complete set of instructions. There are many blanks I left empty. Many times the application of equipment is to blame for bad sound or, at least, less than what someone was expecting from it. Hopefully, this will help you accomplish your goal.
I tend to refrain from advising a person as to which drivers to buy because everyone's taste is different. More importantly, the install has a greater affect in the long run so driver choice becomes just an ingredient in the recipe. With that said, I never use car audio drivers in my vehicles. For the last fifteen years I've use home audio drivers such as Seas, Vifa, Eton, Dynaudio, etc... One reason is because I like to select the individual performance characteristics for each driver. Another is that I've always run active setups so I never needed the passive crossovers that come with component sets. Yet another reason is because by the time I've purchased the drivers separately, I've saved quite a bit of money over the cost of a complete set of components (assuming I was going to buy a nice set to begin with), always with a higher degree of performance. Again, that's mostly contributed to the actual application of those drivers rather than just the driver's abilities.
On that note, what I would suggest to you is to buy a wide band 8" driver, one that could be used in a two-way in a home setup. Something with a response profile that works from about 30hz to 3khz. Here's one example of many; http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-040
With that 8" you should get a large format tweeter that can handle a low crossover point of about 1.5khz to 2khz. Here's one example of a few; http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=276-608
These are just examples to point you in the right direction, I'm not saying to go out and buy those.
Once you have the drivers you feel good about, put your greatest efforts into the installation itself. Make it strong and structural and quiet, parasitic resonances have a huge impact on the finished product and will lead to failure and your unhappiness.
Once the install is complete and solid, every driver should have solid power behind it. Yes even the tweeters, lol. Deck power on the tweeters makes the baby Jesus cry. Tweeters are at the greatest risk of being blown while they are receiving clipped power and you will most certainly be faced with that dilemma using deck power. They need a solid, clean amount of power (classic A/B amplifiers come to mind) without anything else on the circuit with them, no woofers, no crossovers. Just the amplifier and the tweeter.
Once you have good power behind each driver, take all the time in the world to tune the system. Obviously, this means applying crossover points and EQ. I like to EQ in two phases (yes that requires two EQs). If you have a head unit with an EQ built-in, that's good enough for the second phase but the first phase requires a nice one with lots of bands. Set everything to zero on the head unit and turn off the loudness contour before beginning. The first phase is to get the flattest response from each driver within it's working limits. Not just the intended pass band, but the entire range of the driver. It's important for the driver to have flat response, even in the area that the crossover filter will be applied. Otherwise the intended slope will not be accurate. You can't apply crossovers to drivers that have crazy uneven response and hope to get a good looking slope, nor can you accurately set levels between drivers with huge peaks and dips in the response.
Once you have a flat response profile for each driver you can set the level between them for a proper match. This is very important and, once set, should be left alone due to the fact that once you apply your filters with good results for phase and frequency, any adjustment you make to the level of any driver will destroy that. You will drive the crossover point up or down and you will change the phase behavior in the transition region.
Be sure that the absolute polarity on each driver is positive to begin with. You can adjust them later if you feel the need to but start with every driver in positive phase. Verify it with a battery, you won't hurt the drivers. FYI, it's a fact that there are waveforms in nature and music that have only positive halves so reversing the polarity on any driver solely to get a good phase match in the transition region will not preserve those waveforms, it will invert them. Though you may not be able to tell instantly, it's things like these that tell your ear/brain system you're not listening to the real thing. Listening fatigue is similar. At first you think; "wow these highs are crisp and there's so much presence and that bass is so strong" but before you know it, you no longer want to listen to it as loud or not at all. Try, at all costs, to leave all the drivers in positive polarity.
Once you have good response and level behavior from the drivers, you can apply the filters. Cross low and try different slopes. Don't cross too shallow (6dB) with a low point, it's very demanding on the drivers. You can also try asymmetrical slopes to help preserve the positive polarity of the drivers if you aren't having any luck with the phase behavior. A 18dB/12dB mix works well sometimes or, you can always use 24dB/24dB. Remember, you'll be applying EQ again later so if it doesn't sound the best yet, don't give up.
Once you're happy with the filters you've applied, it should start to sound pretty good but may need some polishing by way of a final EQ. Take a look at the Fletcher-Munson curve and EQ with that in mind. Bring down the levels where your ear is most sensitive and see how things sound to you. Don't boost any frequencies yet, only cut. By cutting, you are relatively boosting other frequencies but not demanding anything extra from your amplifiers. It should sound natural without being strident. Give it time in between adjustments and don't adjust too drastically. Baby steps, as it's been said.
I know this is a lot more than you were asking for but by no means is it a complete set of instructions. There are many blanks I left empty. Many times the application of equipment is to blame for bad sound or, at least, less than what someone was expecting from it. Hopefully, this will help you accomplish your goal.
OP
got_focus?
10+ year member
Skeet Skeet Skeet
- Thread Starter
- #20
Ciaonzo, thank you so much for that reply. That is pretty much exactly what I needed. Do you have any suggestions on EQ?
I know my enclosure will be sealed with roughly .5 cubes gross to play with, so I will have to find something that works well in that amount of space.
I know my enclosure will be sealed with roughly .5 cubes gross to play with, so I will have to find something that works well in that amount of space.
For EQ you might want to look at something like the Audiocontrol EQS as it offers six channels of input/output as opposed to just two. Depends on how you want to approach things. EQL is another one. Again, just examples.
http://www.woofersetc.com/p1263/EQS--AudioControl-Six-Channel-PreAmp-Equalizer.htm
http://www.woofersetc.com/p1262/EQL--AudioControl-PreAmp-Equalizer-with-13-Volt-Line-Driver.htm
If you've only got .5 cu.ft. to play with, you might want to get a driver with lower Qts so that by the time you've put it in that amount of airspace with lots of polyfill, the Qtc will still be acceptable (somewhere around .7 to .9).
I love these;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-056
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-066
http://www.woofersetc.com/p1263/EQS--AudioControl-Six-Channel-PreAmp-Equalizer.htm
http://www.woofersetc.com/p1262/EQL--AudioControl-PreAmp-Equalizer-with-13-Volt-Line-Driver.htm
If you've only got .5 cu.ft. to play with, you might want to get a driver with lower Qts so that by the time you've put it in that amount of airspace with lots of polyfill, the Qtc will still be acceptable (somewhere around .7 to .9).
I love these;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-056
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=297-066
OP
got_focus?
10+ year member
Skeet Skeet Skeet
- Thread Starter
- #22
Opinion on this for the driver?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-335
Only reason I ask is that I currently have a pair sitting next to me.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-335
Only reason I ask is that I currently have a pair sitting next to me.
OP
got_focus?
10+ year member
Skeet Skeet Skeet
- Thread Starter
- #24
Honesty is best and I appreciate it!
bemya or B&C mids
OP
got_focus?
10+ year member
Skeet Skeet Skeet
- Thread Starter
- #28
The second box trumped the first easily. I am SO happy with the new box, I think I'm a TL'er for life, LOL.
if you are looking for loud and clear speakers -
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=432613
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=432613
OP
got_focus?
10+ year member
Skeet Skeet Skeet
- Thread Starter
- #30
Looking for something that goes lower than 85hz
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