jeremiah
10+ year member
edit me but not ****? ok?
x2
Do amps make sub sound different
- Thread starter newyork2050
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jeremiah
I'll read it tommorrow //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Too late right now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif
If I hear one more person say amps "sound different" I'm gonna kill JFK errr..... anyway.. what exactly does a watt sound like? I'd also like to know how watts know if they are expensive or cheap ones so they know how to sound...
POWER SOUNDS LIKE POWER given all thigs equal (distortion etc..)
POWER SOUNDS LIKE POWER given all thigs equal (distortion etc..)
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
A watt doesn't sound like anything. A watt is a unit of measurement. I guess if I had to say what it sounded like it would be this 'wät. Thanks Websters.
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
But, rarely are all things equal. Even with two amplifiers of the same brand and type.
There is more that makes up the sound the wattage and distortion. If every spec is within an acceptable range than the two amplifiers could likely sound the same. But, a MOS-FET output doesn't sound the same as a Bi-Polar, Class A usually doesn't sound the same as class AB, direct feedback, local feedback, and zero feedback usually creates different characteristics in the sound.
Very rarely are their two amplifiers designed exactly the same. Every design will have different characteristics to it. Does it have a LTP input? Is it Bi-polar or JFET on the input? Are they using bootstrap current sources or DC Servos? 1 Driver Stage or 2? Does the driver stage use Emitter follower or Common Emitter or both and in what order? Is the Bias designed to be 100mA or 500mA? These are all things that can effect the sound and are very rarely going to be the same between two amplifiers, unless made by the same designer and stamped with different manufatures name. (AKA the Korean mass market car audio amplifiers)
Can anyone find an amplifier with specs that are in a .01 range of each other? I am sure you can. But, I can find an amplifier easier that is out of that range.
So I guess what is the acceptable range? 1% 10% 25%? The only way I know to find two amplifiers close to each other is to buy two of the same brand. That way they will be the same in design & spec. But, even spec from two exact same amplifiers can varry.
If a Visonik amplifier from Wal-Mart had close specs to a Kicker Amplifier or hell even something like an Audison or Zapco Reference there would be difference. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
But, rarely are all things equal. Even with two amplifiers of the same brand and type.
There is more that makes up the sound the wattage and distortion. If every spec is within an acceptable range than the two amplifiers could likely sound the same. But, a MOS-FET output doesn't sound the same as a Bi-Polar, Class A usually doesn't sound the same as class AB, direct feedback, local feedback, and zero feedback usually creates different characteristics in the sound.
Very rarely are their two amplifiers designed exactly the same. Every design will have different characteristics to it. Does it have a LTP input? Is it Bi-polar or JFET on the input? Are they using bootstrap current sources or DC Servos? 1 Driver Stage or 2? Does the driver stage use Emitter follower or Common Emitter or both and in what order? Is the Bias designed to be 100mA or 500mA? These are all things that can effect the sound and are very rarely going to be the same between two amplifiers, unless made by the same designer and stamped with different manufatures name. (AKA the Korean mass market car audio amplifiers)
Can anyone find an amplifier with specs that are in a .01 range of each other? I am sure you can. But, I can find an amplifier easier that is out of that range.
So I guess what is the acceptable range? 1% 10% 25%? The only way I know to find two amplifiers close to each other is to buy two of the same brand. That way they will be the same in design & spec. But, even spec from two exact same amplifiers can varry.
If a Visonik amplifier from Wal-Mart had close specs to a Kicker Amplifier or hell even something like an Audison or Zapco Reference there would be difference. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif
I disagree... 5w @ .0002% THD from any amplifier souds IDENTICAL... the amp its self creates no audible different sound as power is power.. when distortin is below an audible difference all amps sound the same.. class D,T,A/B, AHC...all of them... if you think you can tell the difference you should take Richard Clarks million dollar test....... nobody has to date because.. well you just can't win //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
You are right about one thing.
You just can't win. Read the article I posted a link to a bit ago. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
My question then becomes, if the difference cannot be defined via a measurable index of some sort, how can a reasonable person believe that the difference exists?
The article talked about how the owner of the audio company would ask what was changed when a component was swapped out on an amp/preamp. There was never a mention of whether or not any of the measured specs of the amp changed. I would argue that they did.
I've never heard a person worth listening to say the all amps sound the same, but I've heard a lot of people that do know what they're talking about say that if you can't measure a difference that breaches the level of audiblilty, you can't hear one either.
The article talked about how the owner of the audio company would ask what was changed when a component was swapped out on an amp/preamp. There was never a mention of whether or not any of the measured specs of the amp changed. I would argue that they did.
I've never heard a person worth listening to say the all amps sound the same, but I've heard a lot of people that do know what they're talking about say that if you can't measure a difference that breaches the level of audiblilty, you can't hear one either.
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
Here is one of the reasons I think that you can hear more than you can measure.
I work about 2/3 of my job in the RF world 1/3 in Audio. My dad & grandfather have taught me about it since I was old enough to listen. We've got about $60,000 in RF test equipment easy, probably more if you count the stuff we don't use. But, I have found that after running all of the test equipment there still can be problems. RF desense, noise, wabbles, crackles etc etc. Even with tuning receive cans I set them with the equipment and then test with my ears by running -130 to -125 dBm signal into the receive. If I have for example -12 dB of SIGNAD at .35 uV with the test equipment I can usually get it down to -12 dB of SIGNAD at .3 or less uV with my ears just listening to the noise. Another example is we had a tower site that was recently struck by lightning. All the tests on the equipment SIGNAD, Distortion, FE, etc said there wasn't a problem. But, you could hear there was a problem. After changing out a cable the problem went away. The cable ohms out fine, checks fine, even after taking it apart it still looked good. But, just by using my ears and listening to the audio I solved the problem. If I just used the test equipment I would have probably never figured it out, because the equipment said their wasn't a problem.
Another example is recently we installed antennas for a LTR Trunking system I build for our rental fleat. The antennas were at spec away from each other and the test equipment and calculations showed that everything was fine. But, when listening to the audio you could tell that there was a slight interferience between the two antennas. So, after rotating the one antenna about 10 degrees no more problems.
I think that test equipment and testing is VERY important. Infact it is nessisary to give us a good benchmark. But, I still think that the human ear is the most sensitive piece of test equipment we have. The problem is there is no standard calibration. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
I work about 2/3 of my job in the RF world 1/3 in Audio. My dad & grandfather have taught me about it since I was old enough to listen. We've got about $60,000 in RF test equipment easy, probably more if you count the stuff we don't use. But, I have found that after running all of the test equipment there still can be problems. RF desense, noise, wabbles, crackles etc etc. Even with tuning receive cans I set them with the equipment and then test with my ears by running -130 to -125 dBm signal into the receive. If I have for example -12 dB of SIGNAD at .35 uV with the test equipment I can usually get it down to -12 dB of SIGNAD at .3 or less uV with my ears just listening to the noise. Another example is we had a tower site that was recently struck by lightning. All the tests on the equipment SIGNAD, Distortion, FE, etc said there wasn't a problem. But, you could hear there was a problem. After changing out a cable the problem went away. The cable ohms out fine, checks fine, even after taking it apart it still looked good. But, just by using my ears and listening to the audio I solved the problem. If I just used the test equipment I would have probably never figured it out, because the equipment said their wasn't a problem.
Another example is recently we installed antennas for a LTR Trunking system I build for our rental fleat. The antennas were at spec away from each other and the test equipment and calculations showed that everything was fine. But, when listening to the audio you could tell that there was a slight interferience between the two antennas. So, after rotating the one antenna about 10 degrees no more problems.
I think that test equipment and testing is VERY important. Infact it is nessisary to give us a good benchmark. But, I still think that the human ear is the most sensitive piece of test equipment we have. The problem is there is no standard calibration. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif
audioholic
5,000+ posts
not a moderator
Watts @ a measured THD level does not tell you everything you need to know about the 'sonic footprint' that amplifier will create. We all know tube amps create even-order harmonic distortion, actually considered pleasing to many people's ears. Clearly these amplifiers affect the sound of the reproduction, yet this difference in sound would not show up in its watts/THD spec.
joetama
5,000+ posts
The British Ear
Exactly my point from above. There will almost always be some different in something which affects the way the amplifier will sound.
This is actually a pretty easy question to answer, if by "sound" we mean the human interpretation of sound waves. In that situation, the answer is a resounding "yes". With that said, I will try to explain my opinion without blathering on too much.....
First, the THD spec with respect to amplifiers and speakers: it is extraordinarily flawed. THD ignores the order of distortion, which is critical to how we humans interpret it. In some testing in the past, it has been demonstrated that some can tell between two amplifiers with a difference of less than 1% THD. However, most are hard-pressed to distinguish between speakers with a difference of 10% THD. How is this possibly a valid metric? Shouldn't a metre be a metre everywhere?
Second, ABX testing: it is good, but far from perfect. ABX testing works well for medium-to-large differences between samples, but in cases where we are investigating the threshold of human hearing it becomes hard to extract meaningful data from an ABX test. There are instances of ABX testing where people have taken the same test 5 minutes later and scored differently. In the test world, we call this low reliability.
Third, measuring amplifiers (and everything else): if two things measure identically in every respect, they are effectively the same. And if they're the same, they will have the same sonic properties and recreate the same physical sound.
Lastly (and most importantly), THE HUMAN EAR IS NOT RELIABLE! It drives me bananas to hear people talk about what they hear and try to associate objective data with what they are hearing. I'll give you an example....I've heard people rave about the "detail" they hear in one speaker over another. Well let's examine what could potentially cause this: 1) Lower Non-Linear Distortion, 2) Wider Bandwidth, 3) A peak in frequency response (ie. linear distortion) that makes a particular sound louder than it is in the recording. Most often, it is attributable to #2 or #3 rather than #1. Anyone that tries to use their ear as a measuring stick for anything is simply foolish. With that simple thought in mind, we can make a lot of extrapolations that all say the same thing: we don't completely understand how we "hear" things yet. Even once we are able to account for all physical characteristics, we still cannot account for the human interpretation. This has been demonstrated time and time again by many in the industry, although Drs. Earl Geddes and Lidia Lee are perhaps the most famous of those currently trying to solve this problem.
So in closing, I must re-answer the question: "Do amps make sub sound different?" Given identical amplifiers in every physical or electrical property, the answer is no, amps themselves do not make subs sound different. Given un-identical amplifiers, the answer is maybe. Given identical or un-identical amplifiers, do we humans interpret the sound differently at different intervals (note that this is a reference to a time interval and not a musical interval)? That answer is yes. This distinction is the crux of this entire argument.
First, the THD spec with respect to amplifiers and speakers: it is extraordinarily flawed. THD ignores the order of distortion, which is critical to how we humans interpret it. In some testing in the past, it has been demonstrated that some can tell between two amplifiers with a difference of less than 1% THD. However, most are hard-pressed to distinguish between speakers with a difference of 10% THD. How is this possibly a valid metric? Shouldn't a metre be a metre everywhere?
Second, ABX testing: it is good, but far from perfect. ABX testing works well for medium-to-large differences between samples, but in cases where we are investigating the threshold of human hearing it becomes hard to extract meaningful data from an ABX test. There are instances of ABX testing where people have taken the same test 5 minutes later and scored differently. In the test world, we call this low reliability.
Third, measuring amplifiers (and everything else): if two things measure identically in every respect, they are effectively the same. And if they're the same, they will have the same sonic properties and recreate the same physical sound.
Lastly (and most importantly), THE HUMAN EAR IS NOT RELIABLE! It drives me bananas to hear people talk about what they hear and try to associate objective data with what they are hearing. I'll give you an example....I've heard people rave about the "detail" they hear in one speaker over another. Well let's examine what could potentially cause this: 1) Lower Non-Linear Distortion, 2) Wider Bandwidth, 3) A peak in frequency response (ie. linear distortion) that makes a particular sound louder than it is in the recording. Most often, it is attributable to #2 or #3 rather than #1. Anyone that tries to use their ear as a measuring stick for anything is simply foolish. With that simple thought in mind, we can make a lot of extrapolations that all say the same thing: we don't completely understand how we "hear" things yet. Even once we are able to account for all physical characteristics, we still cannot account for the human interpretation. This has been demonstrated time and time again by many in the industry, although Drs. Earl Geddes and Lidia Lee are perhaps the most famous of those currently trying to solve this problem.
So in closing, I must re-answer the question: "Do amps make sub sound different?" Given identical amplifiers in every physical or electrical property, the answer is no, amps themselves do not make subs sound different. Given un-identical amplifiers, the answer is maybe. Given identical or un-identical amplifiers, do we humans interpret the sound differently at different intervals (note that this is a reference to a time interval and not a musical interval)? That answer is yes. This distinction is the crux of this entire argument.
This isn't meant to really add to the topic, otherwise I would've included it in the previous post....
When designing a system, I have never really cared too much about how the system sounds as long as I don't routinely hear non-linear distortion. Why? Because trying to please my ear in every system is an un-winnable war! What I enjoyed listening to one day, I may not enjoy hearing two weeks down the road. My interpretation of sounds is not static by any means.
So what do I do? Well, I design a system that will reproduce the original signal as closely as possible and check my ears at the door. I still listen critically and I will argue with anyone over who loves music more, but I refuse to weigh my happiness on something as unreliable as my ears. I take every musical experience with the same weight and I don't deny that I find some instances more pleasant than others, but I would never be foolish enough to associate my faulty ears with any single product in the chain.....
Of course, this is also why I think SQ competitions are just completely ridiculous: they rely on an "accurate to the source" premise to assure others of objectivism, then use their ears to judge. Real bright, guys.....
When designing a system, I have never really cared too much about how the system sounds as long as I don't routinely hear non-linear distortion. Why? Because trying to please my ear in every system is an un-winnable war! What I enjoyed listening to one day, I may not enjoy hearing two weeks down the road. My interpretation of sounds is not static by any means.
So what do I do? Well, I design a system that will reproduce the original signal as closely as possible and check my ears at the door. I still listen critically and I will argue with anyone over who loves music more, but I refuse to weigh my happiness on something as unreliable as my ears. I take every musical experience with the same weight and I don't deny that I find some instances more pleasant than others, but I would never be foolish enough to associate my faulty ears with any single product in the chain.....
Of course, this is also why I think SQ competitions are just completely ridiculous: they rely on an "accurate to the source" premise to assure others of objectivism, then use their ears to judge. Real bright, guys.....
This is more what I was talking about... given measurable metrics that are below the threshold of human ear response.. there will be no difference... wether they are mosfets... t03's etc...
of course tube amps sound different.. they introduce a "warm distortion"... but they don't sound different if that "warm distortion" is kept below audible levels //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
The biggest difference with tube amps is when they are clipping or coming really close to it and the distortion starts to rise. That is where the order of the harmonics come in. If kept below that point, where the distortion is extremely low, they sound different than solid state because of an insufficient damping factor. This sound can be simulated with a solid state amp by simply wiring a resistor in series with the speaker.
joetama-RF is a whole different ballgame. Skin effect comes into play. Cable capacitance is much more important. I do a lot of work in C-band and Ku-band comms and we get interference that is theoretically impossible all the time based entirely on antenna placement and orientation and not on frequency. Wierd cross mojinations happen all the time in my job and the "specialists" with the big brains assure me that what I'm complaining about is impossible until I show it to them, at which point they just scratch their heads.
joetama-RF is a whole different ballgame. Skin effect comes into play. Cable capacitance is much more important. I do a lot of work in C-band and Ku-band comms and we get interference that is theoretically impossible all the time based entirely on antenna placement and orientation and not on frequency. Wierd cross mojinations happen all the time in my job and the "specialists" with the big brains assure me that what I'm complaining about is impossible until I show it to them, at which point they just scratch their heads.
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