Do 15's play rock as well as 10's?

Just out of curiousity, what are you basing this on? experience? numbers? I'm finding it hard to believe that a simmilarly constructed 18" and 6.5" woofer will have Exactly the same responsiveness. Even if the cone weight isn't the problem, the bigger the cone, the more air it has to move, which means more resistance, which means less responsive. Note, there is a difference between saying "it is possible to make an 18 with the responsiveness of a 6.5" and "size has 0% to do with speaker response". Just to take a step back and look at everything logically, Tweeters are by far, the most responsive part of the stereo system, and they are by far the smallest. Is that just a coinsidence? By your logic, couldn't we make the tweeter 10" in diameter and have it be incredibly loud w/o loosing any speaker response?
If we were talking much much higher frequencies you could theoretically have a point, but for subwoofers, no, everything you typed is completely false.

The largest limiter of response and consequently that which most impacts transient performance, is INDUCTANCE, NOT woofer diameter or mass. That is a common myth, and many people don't understand what's going on, and end up confirming the myth by listening without thinking much.

Subwoofer response is nearly always limited by the crossover, so the high frequency performance is usually not very critical, unless you are trying to cross a woofer with a high inductance over at a higher frequency or with a very shallow slope.

However, you are mistaken if you think diameter directly relates to accuracy in any way, shape, or form.

There are 6s that can't play over 200hz or so without rolling off, and there are 18s (Aura 1808 for example) that can play upto 1.5Khz cleanly.

Diameter has NOTHING to do with accuracy. If anything, it would actually mean the OPPOSITE of what you're thinking, because a larger diameter driver has more displacement for any given motor/coil combination, and as such, will produce any SPL level with LESS distortion than the smaller diameter driver.

 
Either way every 15" sub I have heard dose seem to have slower cone speed then a 10 or 12. That's the reason why this time I got 12's instead of 15's. Myth or not I have not heard a 15" sub that is as tight or can play as high as a 10" sub, even in some of the nicest custom installs.

 
Don't just listen to any 15's, listen to the ones that are properly Installed. Try Mark Eldridge (sp?) 4 RUnner or Richard Clark's GN. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

 
listen to helotaxi

he knows exactly what he's talking about

i have an eD 12A, and my friend has an RE XXX 15

the 15 is the most accurate 15 inch driver i've ever heard. it is one of the most accurate drivers in general i have heard. its every bit as accurate as my 12A. my 12 seems to have a smoother roll off, and a tiny bit more SQ; while is his substantially louder. nonetheless, the 15 has amazing SQ and is an amazing driver. the drivers just sound different because, they are different. i prefer a little more SQ in my system than SPL, and he prefers SPL more than SQ. and we both got what we're looking for. i couldn't be happier with my 12 and he couldn't be happier with his 15. both awesome drivers, HIGHLY accurate, awesome sound quality, and both get extremely loud. its all about the install (we built our boxes really well and strong), and the driver needs to have a quality motor structure as well as cone, etc etc. everything that helotaxi has mentioned is completely true.

with this being said, basically, the 15's you have listened to have been dogshit and/or have been in dogshit installs. pure and simple. thats why you're under the impression 15's are slower than 10s.

 
Somebody has never heard 15s before... (Cough Cough)B_Master_Flash! (Cough Cough)
Ok... I worked doing car audio installs for about a year... I'm not an expert, but I most definitely have heard a butt load of 10s, 12s, and 15s. I'm sure there is a lot of technical flaws with my theory, but not having heard a wide variety of installs definitly is NOT the problem.

 
ok, you all are talking about high end 15's still being able to move quickly, but what about high end 18s? would the 18" XXX be able to keep up with an 10" or 12" XXX? not interested in getting one, just curious

 
Just out of curiousity, what are you basing this on? experience? numbers? I'm finding it hard to believe that a simmilarly constructed 18" and 6.5" woofer will have Exactly the same responsiveness.
It all depends on the coil and the motor. Size has nothing to do with the speed with which the coil moves. The inductance of the coil has everything to do with how fast it responds. Inductance is the measure of a coil of wire's resistance to a change in current. The higher the number the slower the response. As I said it not just that simple but assuming that the motor is strong enough to move the cone and the cone is string enough to move the air without deforming then it is that simple.

Even if the cone weight isn't the problem, the bigger the cone, the more air it has to move, which means more resistance, which means less responsive.
Magnetism is funny in that as long as the power is sufficient to move what you want to move, it moves. Let's get into the physics of it all. F=ma. The force (F) we have to work with is the Bl of the motor and the current going through the turns of wire in the magnetic gap of the motor. Mass is basically a constant (enclosure loading plays a small part in a sealed enclosure and a larger part in a vented enclosure especially at high excusion levels but starting at rest it is effectively zero for both). For a given mass, Bl and current, we know what the acceleration is going to be. Take the derivative of the above with respect to time. Because we are working with AC, F is constantly changing with changes in current (Bl is constant and we will assume that the coil remains in the gap). Mass is not changing with time. Acceleration must change at the same rate as the current. At 60hz, the current fully cycles once every 1/60 of a second. It does this whether it is running through the coil of a 6.5 or an 18. What is the difference? If the voicecoil inductance of the two speakers is the same, there is no difference. Inductance is the resistance to changing current, remember.

Let's look at an example. Assume that two speakers have exactly the same motor and voicecoil. In fact the only difference between the two is the moving mass (think larger speaker, different enclosure, what-have-you). We feed them the same signal. Will you hear a difference? The rate of change of current is the same. The rate of change of acceleration is the same. The magnitude of the acceleration is less, but the rate of change is the same. The lighter speaker will exhibit greater excursion because of the greater acceleration, but the transient response will be identical because of the same rate of change of acceleration.

Note, there is a difference between saying "it is possible to make an 18 with the responsiveness of a 6.5" and "size has 0% to do with speaker response".
Size has zero to do with speaker response all other things being equal. This seems hard to swallow because you are thinking instantaneously. Transient response is a function of time. It is harder to move a larger cone, but that is not the measure of transient response. Transient response is an electrical function, not a mechanical one.

All other things are not usually equal, that's the rub and that makes it even harder to grasp. To get a coil with enough power to move a larger cone with authority and able to acheive high excursion levels, the coil usually ends up with a higher inductance compared to a smaller, lighter driver. The newer motor designs being used on modern subs overcome this hinderance by using a more powerful motor rather than a larger coil as used to be the case. This keeps the inductance low and allows for the transient response of a smaller driver using a conventional motor design.

Just to take a step back and look at everything logically, Tweeters are by far, the most responsive part of the stereo system, and they are by far the smallest. Is that just a coinsidence? By your logic, couldn't we make the tweeter 10" in diameter and have it be incredibly loud w/o loosing any speaker response?
They are the smallest, but that has nothing to do with moving mass. It has everything to due with piston breakup at high frequencies. As you start to vibrate a large diaphram at really high frequecies, the forces involved with starting and stopping the diaphram cause the diaphram to start to ditort and lose its shape. If you could make an infinitely stiff diaphram, then you could make a tweeter as large as you wanted. Of course the other problem you run into is the whole inductance thing again. Inductors are the main component in passive low pass filters. Whatever frequency the inductance of the voicecoil equates to, the driver will begin to roll off above that frequency, thus limiting its high frequency capability. Tweeters are small because the small size and mass 1) will not destroy itself by vibrating at high frequencies and 2) because the coil required to move them is sufficiently small that it has a low enough inductance to not limit its capabilities within the audible spectrum of sound.

 
I've heard the Kicker L7's, RF HX Powerseries, Alpine Type R's, MTX and a few other 15's. The Alpines, Kicker and RF subs were all in good custom boxes with 500-1000WRMS to each sub. They seemed mostly just to hit low, and seemed to have slower cone speed. It being a myth or not in some cases it seems to be true.

 
that's because the box is crappy. Blame the enclosure. One thing results to another doesn't always mean it's object's fault. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
I have an older ED15a in a 3.5 ported box and my bass response is very quick. My manager and I tested all kind of music and it perform VERY well. I have this one hard metal song where the drum bass line is just insanely fast, and my ED15a didn't miss one single note. It can also get extremely low (20hz). another employee off mine have 2 12s infinity in a sealed box and his was loud as mine but the SQ was no where near it. It wasn't even close to quick response and low notes. My manager is amazed how well a 15in. can sound. So back to the topic, from all my experience, a 10in. does not mean that it's tighter, quicker bass response than a 15in. It all depends on the designs of the subs and the intsall.

 
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