dimming lights

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine

. I have more than enough backing to prove this. You just stand here with the "because I said so" stance.

still waiting for you to prove it------------ all i've seen so far is cap thread that ---------- is reguard to HIGH ESR CAPS. I don't think that proved anythingdo you?

I suggest you get away from the books and the computer and get into the real world chris, you'll find it isn't so simple (like it is on paper) as you would like it to be.

Once you learn to fuse the gap between controlled labratory results and what transpires in reality, you'll really start to learn something...

it really very simple------- just a simple is it is on paper

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by zane Truley it is the mark of an un-educated mind to dispute the proven facts, even if they are right before them.

zane did you see it proven somewhere------ point it out to me-- I don't see it

I took a break from here for a bit. In addition to personal time constraints; I simply got tired of your condescending attitude and denseness in our previous discussion on the matter.

No matter---

Josh has clearly explained all the details relavant to this matter and backed them up with reputable sources. I see absolutely none of this same courtesy being extended on your behalf in support of your argument.

read above-------- did you really want to continue this thread------ I have alot of things to show

Just the childish "I'm right because I said so!" remarks.

come on man--- where did I say that?

I honestly do not see how you can believe that caps are beneficial with the overabundance of information present that clearly contradicts that.

again zane -----what information?--------or OVERABUNDANCE of------ i'm sure if it was that much I would have seen it
can you point out -----------just one thing?

how do you REALLY believe caps aren't? They're caps....... that is what their purpose is. I can't even begin to tell you in how many devices these---- unbenificial things ----are in

millons------ billions of devices------- your amps already have some capacitance--- is it a design flaw? no I don't think so either

Josh has been a good deal more thorough and patient than I was, however, we both share the same conclusion regarding caps.

how ? why? I don't understand what is telling you caps are worthless? Not anything related to electricity. what info points to the idea that caps are bad?

An electrical load is defined in automotive terms as any device or object that requires the assistance of of the charging system to maintain its proper functionability.

lets just say the cap acts as an electricial dampener---- I think that's is a better decription

On another note- I dont see the complication in this matter.

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/capacitr.htm

well the pictures aren't correct when comparing cap to batterys but the text is about right

except for the ---------

This is because there has been some discussion as to whether a capacitor is a help or a hinderence when it comes to keeping the voltage at a higher level than without it. Of course, if you ask someone that's spent more than $100 on a capacitor if it helped, they'll tell you that it has. Why on earth would someone 'fess up' to wasting that much money on 'snake oil'. I've yet to see a capacitor increase the SPL in any system.

snake oil------ good one ...... I see the person who wrote that page is still confused about the use of caps---------- and whats the discussion about?

a cap acts as a cap-------simple

Also- a point of interest regarding the Class A,B, and Class D amplifiers. This is pretty close to what Josh was saying earlier regarding the Class D's efficiency over the others.

http://www.irf.com/whats-new/nr010515.html

I not sure why you posted a link about class D amps
no one is saying they aren't efficient------

All in all- I believe you may eat your previous words about learning things correctly.

Not trying to be an a*s, just trying to dispell a myth.

take it easy,

-zane

what's the myth?
you aren't saying caps WORKING is a myth are you?

why?---says who---or what study--- book?

after all of the arguing about caps -------- whats been proven ?

at first the arument was about me saying there not loads------- so I said not at the same time or not in the same way as a normal load------ something to that effect

then somehow the graphs were put up to prove that caps are useless

but when I said the graphs were talking about HIGH ESR caps ------- he then changed the arguement too

being able to find low ESR caps-------- which i did-----not sure why

because the topic was getting side tracked ------- I tried to find common ground on the BASIC issues which were.......

because it car audio we should only be talking about ---------low ESR caps

and that there are 2 sources of current in a system with a cap--------somehow that was WRONG-------- and the "correct" answer was 1 source with the cap discharged

was it me or do they mean the same thing?

anyway---------

he started saying -------caps are just for "the install look" but came back later to state the amps internal capacitance will take care of the music dynamics------

so I jumped in a stated----------- so adding more is better------- and somehow he seems to think it's not

so it's good when in the amp-------- but a load and bad when you add some

then the attacks came--- at me

blah----blah----blah

so I haven't "seen the info you speak of

so it wasn't proven---------- have yet to see it proven

then the random people came by to throw an egg or too

now i'm talking to you and you seem to be claiming to things-------1 caps are loads and 2 they are worthless correct?

1------ I think this is just problem with the way caps work------ and depends how you want to look at them

your ASE book is defining a load------- not a cap

yes caps draw current-------- of course-----but they also share the load too with the alternator

by the way the ASE define loads----------- the alternator would be one to----- don't you agree? as it doesn't work without the charging systems help--------- I don't concider them a "LOAD" though---------- same with caps but for another reason------ they act as dampeners

2------- for your claim to this ------- i;m not sure how you got to that assumption but would like to discuss it

so you are claiming the use of caps in high current stiffening is worthless?--------

k------ if you believe that then do they work in high voltage needs?

the only difference would be the required ESR------

guys---- I would still like to discuss the issue of caps ------ if everyone done throwing eggs at me------- sorry-----guys---i'm an ass

I guess I get stressed answering the same Q all the time----------

even if we were to debate it and find an answer---------- people would still believe what ever they want to------- and this type of discussion would go to the end of time

all over the -------simple cap

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

I'm quite done with this one... I can't stop laughing long enough to take this seriously.... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

The point got across to the initial thread starter, that's all I care about.

Accept the fact that myself and zane don't agree with you chris, and move on... You are not the only force in this world. Accept the fact that we agree to continue to disagree.

 

[Steven 10+ year member]

Chris:

You've been proven wrong in the past and will be again.

When you first charge the cap when installig it in the car - it is a load.

When the cap is charged and your cars total load is less than that put out by the amplifier, the cap just sits there keeping its charge up.

When A heavy bass note hits for a fraction of a second and during that hit the total load of the vehicle is more than the alts output, the cap supplies the additional current. It is a source

Afterward the Caprecharges like there was no problem - durig this recharging the cap IS a load

When a prolonged heavy bass note hits, the cap quickly discharges and becomes another load on the alt. In this instance you have the cap, plus the amplifier high demand overtaxing your alternator

Afterward the Cap recharges - durig this recharging the cap IS a load

PROVE THAT WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

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[zane 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229 how can the cap be discahrged BELOW the alternator---- current flows from the HIGHEST source k //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Easy- the cap will never maintain 14.4 volts on its own.

Batteries can even be discharged below the alt- In fact- they are 99.9% of the time- which is why they are a load.

The cap spends its very miniscule voltage in a fraction of a second- after that its worthless until the alternator recharges it.

Since the caps "burst of power" is so small- it basically makes them useless.

Referring to your previous question- in ASE terms, or even in common automotive knowledge; No, the alternator is not a load. It is the supplier to the charging system. Things which tax it are the loads.

An alternator that has its own load would be counterproductive to its design, and make it worthless in the auto industry.

 

the cap will always be a second source when the voltage is droping------- it not in the circuit when the voltage is stable---- and is a load when the voltage is higher

 

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No- the cap is always a load. It really isnt much else but pretty to look at.

I believe that this was covered in some great detail in previous posts to this topic.

The cap will Never be a "second source" as it is not a source at all. It places a demand on the charging system- therefor it is a load.

It can not do its job without the alternator- therefor it is not a source, it is a load.

take it easy,

-zane

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

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[Steven 10+ year member]

how can the cap be discahrged BELOW the alternator---- current flows from the HIGHEST source

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif
Easily happens all the time.

When the alternator is overtaxed it's output voltage drops way down from 14.4, I've seen mine go as low as 8-volts.

Now the Cap is discharged to 8-volts and the Bass note ends. The amplifier no-longer needs as much power, The alt is no-longer over-taxed, Output voltage increases back to 14.4.

Now the Cap is @ 8-volts and the Alt is @ 14.4-volts. Sounds to me like the cap is discharged below the Alt.

So the cap is now a load untill it recharges.

No a Cap cannot maintain a constant charge,measure the voltageacross you cap, Disconnet it and, leave it sit all night and tell me that by morning the cap and battery still have the same charge. If they are congrats- you have the first Battery-like capacitor ever made.

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

I can't believe you guys are wasting your time... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

I'll sit this one out, it's just funny for me now... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[zane 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine I can't believe you guys are wasting your time... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

I'll sit this one out, it's just funny for me now... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I'm about to join you in this matter. I'll bring the cheez wiz! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

No offense to anyone- but how can anyone be so **** stubborn?

Originally Posted by chris229:
but can expend 100-1000's of amps in doing so

In a fraction of a second? Two Words- Prove it.

either can the alternator ------ it needs current too----BUT for some reason it isn't a load even though you keep pointing to your definition of a load---- it's a catch 22

FALSE- The alternator does not need current. It makes it. It is mechanically driven- therefor not a load on the charging system. I assumed that you knew at least this much with the way you go on about the vehicles electrical system.

There is no catch22 to it at all. There is really no point in continuing this conversation if you are not aware of how an alternator works. Check out that ASE book I reccomended earlier- thats the honest to goodness best way to gain a thorough and correct insight to how a vehicles electrical system works.

zane if you believe they are load and always are--------- what is the purpose of putting them in a circuit------- to preload it?

To make its installer believe that they are actually helping the allready struggling charging system.

That was more of a catch22 question if I have ever heard one.

So far you have not clearly read or understood the definition of a load, or the information contained within this thread that proves caps are useless. You want your proof- read back through the previous 7 pages a few hundered times. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif Its there- its as plain as day.

Your turn- prove that a cap works. I doubt it will happen.

I'll clarify things:

Originally posted by zane:
Truley it is the mark of an un-educated mind to dispute the proven facts, even if they are right before them.

Response from chris229 to the above quote:
zane did you see it proven somewhere------ point it out to me-- I don't see it

Ok chris229; I am pointing it out to you now:

http://forums.caraudio.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15196

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take it easy,

-zane

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

I don't want cheez whiz! Where is my DQ treat? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

You waste too much time arguing with this person ( //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif ), you won't get up here late this month like I ordered you too...

Go make some money or something... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Chris can continue reading out of his books, let him be... People like you and I with reality based experience as well as the book knowledge can continue to show exactly how it falls into place.

Pop quiz chris:

2600wrms system. Dynamic music. No caps. Listened to at full output. 180A alternator.

Think the lights dim?

(be careful how you answer, I installed this system.)

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

field current:banghead:

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

no matter ----you guys just don't understand simple electronics if you did than this thread would be an issue

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229 field current:banghead:

 

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

 

no matter ----you guys just don't understand simple electronics if you did than this thread would be an issue

lol...

Too good... too good...

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[zane 10+ year member]

Originally posted by chris229 field current:banghead:

 

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

 

no matter ----you guys just don't understand simple electronics if you did than this thread would be an issue

This comming from someone who thinks the alternator is an electrical load.

Yeah right.

Tell us again who doesnt understand simple electronics.

Whats next? Are you going to tell us that underpowering speakers damages them?

I'm quite through now too.

have a peachy day!

-zane

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by zane This comming from someone who thinks the alternator is an electrical load.

 

Yeah right.

 

Tell us again who doesnt understand simple electronics.

 

Whats next? Are you going to tell us that underpowering speakers damages them?

 

I'm quite through now too.

 

have a peachy day!

 

-zane

Didn't you know that you could pass current backward through a bridge rectifier while the circuit is energized and producing current at a voltage identical to the rest of the source? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif