confused about balanced input amps

I understand the what, why and whatever, I just thought since I had the capability I would run the balanced straight to the amp if one was setup right. A lot of the amps advertise balanced inputs, but then use a different input for the balanced. If no one makes an amp with the balanced inputs I need I will just run my bla that converts it to standard inputs, and 10v.

 
eclipse cd8053.
So no one knows of any amps current or discontinued that had balanced inputs that used 2 sets of rca's? I can still always use the bla but so it's not that big of deal just thought if I was looking to see what I could find.
I checked the manual for that HU and for the life of me can't figure out how they implement the balanced line outputs. What I've seen in other decks is that they invert the rear channels and those become the minus side of the balanced line. You get two RCA outputs for each channel and lose the rear preouts. If that's the case you should be able to make a custom cable by chopping off RCA plugs at one end and soldering them to XLR plugs or whatever your balanced line amp inputs are.

An amp that has differential inputs amplifies the difference between the +'ve and ground wires on your RCA which causes noise to cancel out when using twisted pair cables...
An RCA output run through a twisted pair is not a balanced line. One of the 2 wires is just a ground. Noise cancellation is only possible if the impedances of the 2 wires to ground are equal (balanced), so they pick up the same noise.

Most amps only amplify what is on the +'ve RCA wire and just use the ground as a referance...
That's true even if the inputs are differential. One side of an RCA is ground. The advantage of differential inputs is that the input negative is not at ground potential, so ground loops can't exist.

 
An RCA output run through a twisted pair is not a balanced line. One of the 2 wires is just a ground. Noise cancellation is only possible if the impedances of the 2 wires to ground are equal (balanced), so they pick up the same noise.
Where did I say having T/P cables made your signal balanced? If your amp has so called 'differentially balanced inputs' and you use T/P cables then induced noise will cancel itself out.. I would hope the two cables would have the same impedance since they are the same size and length., otherwise they wouldn't work properly... the key is that noise enters the two wires 180 degrees out of phase (because they are twisted) and the amp amplifies the difference in potential on those two lines as opposed to amplifying just the hot line with the other as a reference with no isolation from power ground.....

That's true even if the inputs are differential. One side of an RCA is ground. The advantage of differential inputs is that the input negative is not at ground potential, so ground loops can't exist.
Yes the advane of differential inputs is that the negative is not at ground potential because it is isolated.. And in a true balanced arrangement there is the same amount of voltage on the negative line as the positive line and the two are inverted 180 degrees out of phase in a push-pull arrangement...

In either case what would normally be considered to be the singal ground is isolated from power ground...

 
Where did I say having T/P cables made your signal balanced? If your amp has so called 'differentially balanced inputs' and you use T/P cables then induced noise will cancel itself out..
No, it won't. Twisted wires don't "cancel" anything. That's a common misconception. The only thing twisted pairs do is ensure that both wires are in the same noise field. That's important for a true balanced line, but for RCA's it's meaningless. All you get is a signal line with an extra ground wire wrapped around it.

I would hope the two cables would have the same impedance since they are the same size and length., otherwise they wouldn't work properly...
One wire is the RCA signal wire with some impedance to ground, the other is ground (zero ohms). It's physically impossible for both wires to pick up the same noise, so there's nothing for the diff amp to reject.

the key is that noise enters the two wires 180 degrees out of phase (because they are twisted) and the amp amplifies the difference in potential on those two lines as opposed to amplifying just the hot line with the other as a reference with no isolation from power ground.....
Wrong. Phase has nothing to do with it. A diff amp amplifies the difference between the 2 wires and rejects any ground referenced noise that's common to them. Any difference in noise becomes part of the signal. And since the ground wire in an RCA line (even if twisted) can't pick up ground referenced noise, there's no way for it to be rejected. All the noise is on one wire.

A balanced line works because there's 2 separate wires carrying the signal and if they have the same impedance to ground (definition of "balanced") they will pick up the same noise and the diff amp will reject it. It's not about phase, it's about impedances.

 
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I will reiterate that T/P cables work because noise enters the two leads 180 degrees out of phase and if (and only if) the amp they are connected to has differential or balanced inputs the noise will cancel... this is pretty basic stuff and if you can't wrap your mind around that then there is no point in having any further discussion...

Everyone should note that T/P cables are useless against preventing induced noise unless they are used with an amp that has differential or balanced inputs...

The impedance matching you speak of is inherant to the amp or source and has nothing to do with the cables.... ie. if an an amp has differential or balanced inputs then the input impedance on the positive and negative lines must be equal... otherwise induced noise would not cancel properly...

 
I have made my own balanced converters, using audio-grade op amps and 1% resistors, it's a pretty easy concept. At the transmitter/source the pin is as-is and the shield signal is inverted 180deg. Then the receiver inverts the shield signal, sums the two, and you get a 3dB signal gain. A second benefit is any noise common and in-phase on both wires, i.e. induced in the run, is cancelled. I was getting an 80dB noise reduction with my version. Balanced does nothing to reduce noise inherent in the source or amplifier.

Since modern head units have "balanced" speaker outputs (I.e. bridged) many amps with high-level inputs also have balanced inputs. From a voltage signal standpoint: "bridged" and "balanced" are the same thing.

My xtant amps have true balanced inputs as well.

Some amps just use the RCA inputs as low and high level inputs, so you solder speaker wire onto a male RCA connector to achieve speaker-line inputs. THe same amps can have true balanced inputs. An amp like that would be a perfect match.

In summary, you can feed high-level inputs on some amps with you balanced outputs.

 
I will reiterate that T/P cables work because noise enters the two leads 180 degrees out of phase and if (and only if) the amp they are connected to has differential or balanced inputs the noise will cancel... this is pretty basic stuff and if you can't wrap your mind around that then there is no point in having any further discussion...
And I will reiterate that your statement is simply wrong. If you want to continue believing that nonsense, it's your choice.

You can lead a horse to water...

 
And I will reiterate that your statement is simply wrong. If you want to continue believing that nonsense, it's your choice.
You can lead a horse to water...
Haunz is wrong.

He is trying. It needs to listen and pay attention, think about it, and he may see the light.

If it helps, I wrote a paper on the subject. Includes scope plots, schematics, etc. I can upload and link if there is interest.

 
If it helps, I wrote a paper on the subject. Includes scope plots, schematics, etc. I can upload and link if there is interest.
I would like to see it.

OP, did you find the 8kw amp with the inputs you like?
Nope, I've done a lot of googling and checking out everything from mcintosh to crunch, but no luck. I did find that I can probably cut the ends off my rca's and the end off the goofy proprietary cable that the newer amps use and make a hybrid cable, but I will probably just use the balanced line adapter.

Here is the deck and all the rca outputs.

0422021539.jpg


The balanced line adapter that converts the 2 rca's per channel into the standard single.

0422021539b.jpg


 
Ok, so there are two cables per channel, pin+ and pin- with both shields as ground.

I wouldn't cut any ends off the HU, but you could easily adapt cables or make your own box.

The paper I will share will show you how to build your own converter, parts are cheap.

 
Ok, so there are two cables per channel,
Yes

pin+ and pin- with both shields as ground.
Not smart enough to answer that.

I wouldn't cut any ends off the HU, but you could easily adapt cables or make your own box.
I wasn't really planning on it. If I did something like that I would cut the end off the rca cable after I ran it to the back where the amp is. But it doesn't seem worth it.

The paper I will share will show you how to build your own converter, parts are cheap.
The balanced line adapter has inputs for all six rca's and then outputs only 3 just for a standard inputs. It ouputs and 10v also.

Like I said if I could have found amps that would accept what I had straight from the hu without using the bla then I would, but it doesn't seem that anyone makes one.

 
Not smart enough to answer that.
I was stating the configuration, not asking. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif. FYI

Like I said if I could have found amps that would accept what I had straight from the hu without using the bla then I would, but it doesn't seem that anyone makes one.
The only advantage is high signal and low amp gain, to minimize noise. I don't know of any amps that accept those RCA configurations either.

 
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