Capacitors Aren't Useless

If you're hearing a difference, then you either have some really cheap equipment that has totally inadequate filtering built in, your alt and battery are going bad allowing a huge ripple into the system (the battery is a much better filter than a cap and that fact is one of the main reasons that running the car without a battery after it's started will damage the computers in the car) or you convinced yourself that you can hear a difference. The last one is the most likely.

Whoever said something about an active crossover above needs to kindly excuse themselves from the conversation.

 
If you're hearing a difference, then you either have some really cheap equipment that has totally inadequate filtering built in, your alt and battery are going bad allowing a huge ripple into the system (the battery is a much better filter than a cap and that fact is one of the main reasons that running the car without a battery after it's started will damage the computers in the car) or you convinced yourself that you can hear a difference. The last one is the most likely.
Whoever said something about an active crossover above needs to kindly excuse themselves from the conversation.
So.. what you're saying is, caps aren't useless, and they do what was said in the first post, filter AC ripple, right? And you've only just resorted to knock my equipment and call BS on my hearing lol. Ok, fair enough. At least caps are useful huh?

Well, I never had a problem with my system or electrical before. Clarion DXZ785USB HU, RF T3002 and Alpine MRP-F250 amps (nothing special, but I wouldn't call them totally inadequate). Kinetiks are working just fine, sitting at 13V. HO Alt works no problem, charging up to 14.6

Hmm, do you think Larry Frederick's findings about ~20dB ripple reduction is just nonsense?

 
So.. what you're saying is, caps aren't useless, and they do what was said in the first post, filter AC ripple, right? And you've only just resorted to knock my equipment and call BS on my hearing lol. Ok, fair enough. At least caps are useful huh?
Well, I never had a problem with my system or electrical before. Clarion DXZ785USB HU, RF T3002 and Alpine MRP-F250 amps (nothing special, but I wouldn't call them totally inadequate). Kinetiks are working just fine, sitting at 13V. HO Alt works no problem, charging up to 14.6

Hmm, do you think Larry Frederick's findings about ~20dB ripple reduction is just nonsense?
20dB where? That would equate to audible noise, right? Did you have noise before the cap? If the answer is "no," then explain to me what you're hearing that's different. If you can't measure the reduction in the ripple, why are you so quick to fully and completely believe everything that this guy says? Oh, right, every thing on the internet is true. Sorry I forgot.

I'm saying that if the rest of the system is working correctly, then a cap is useless. Your mind can convince you that you hear things that simply aren't there. Simple fact of psychoacoustics. If you want to argue that point go find a bunch of "audiophiles" and they'll be more than happy to agree with you that if you think you heard a difference then clearly you did! I never knocked your equipment or your actual hearing, only your perception. Your experience is hardly conclusive of anything for the simple reason that you have nothing factual to back it up, only what you think that you heard.

 
20dB where? That would equate to audible noise, right? Did you have noise before the cap? If the answer is "no," then explain to me what you're hearing that's different. If you can't measure the reduction in the ripple, why are you so quick to fully and completely believe everything that this guy says? Oh, right, every thing on the internet is true. Sorry I forgot.
I'm saying that if the rest of the system is working correctly, then a cap is useless. Your mind can convince you that you hear things that simply aren't there. Simple fact of psychoacoustics. If you want to argue that point go find a bunch of "audiophiles" and they'll be more than happy to agree with you that if you think you heard a difference then clearly you did! I never knocked your equipment or your actual hearing, only your perception. Your experience is hardly conclusive of anything for the simple reason that you have nothing factual to back it up, only what you think that you heard.
Wow, you get very testy when someone simply and honestly replies to statements that you've made for discussion. And from your quotes in your sig, I think you may have a superiority complex and think you know better than everyone.

But since you post your thoughts on the internet, I guess I shouldn't believe what you say either huh? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Seriously though, No, I'm sorry I don't have a dual trace o-scope on hand to test all this. Do you? If so, can you post your findings for better comparison? Thanks.

 
shops convince people caps will fix electrical issues(and lack there of)....which is false...
Exactly. Caps aren't the solution to a weak electrical system. That's what alternators and batteries are for. What is neglected and misunderstood I guess about caps are their filtering and conditioning effects...which is a good thing.

 
I got it for power conditioning and the AC ripple filtering that I read about.


Ill say duh before I go ahead and read the rest of the posts, also batteries do the same thing

edit- wait, AC ripple? never heard of that. Ripple in DC voltage to the amps yes, but AC ripple, never heard of.

 
Ill say duh before I go ahead and read the rest of the posts, also batteries do the same thing
edit- wait, AC ripple? never heard of that. Ripple in DC voltage to the amps yes, but AC ripple, never heard of.
Well, he just means the small AC components the are left in the DC power from the alternator.

 
20dB where? That would equate to audible noise, right? Did you have noise before the cap? If the answer is "no," then explain to me what you're hearing that's different. If you can't measure the reduction in the ripple, why are you so quick to fully and completely believe everything that this guy says? Oh, right, every thing on the internet is true. Sorry I forgot.
I'm saying that if the rest of the system is working correctly, then a cap is useless. Your mind can convince you that you hear things that simply aren't there. Simple fact of psychoacoustics. If you want to argue that point go find a bunch of "audiophiles" and they'll be more than happy to agree with you that if you think you heard a difference then clearly you did! I never knocked your equipment or your actual hearing, only your perception. Your experience is hardly conclusive of anything for the simple reason that you have nothing factual to back it up, only what you think that you heard.
>

Wow, you get very testy when someone simply and honestly replies to statements that you've made for discussion. And from your quotes in your sig, I think you may have a superiority complex and think you know better than everyone.
But since you post your thoughts on the internet, I guess I shouldn't believe what you say either huh? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Seriously though, No, I'm sorry I don't have a dual trace o-scope on hand to test all this. Do you? If so, can you post your findings for better comparison? Thanks.
= End of Thread/

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

Have a good day. Ill be fine without a capacitor incorporated into my system.

 
So before this turns from discussion to argue-fest, I'll just end with the following. I think it's a truthful and non-biased FAQ regarding caps. BUT don't BELIEVE everything you read on the internet!!!! Use your own experience, and listen with your OWN ears. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

Later guys!

A capacitor WILL:-Act as a filter for AC ripple effect caused by the imperfect rectification of the AC current produced by an alternator, and rectified by a DC voltage regulator.

-Smooth the demand curve for current on the alternator, thus extending (theoretically at least) the alternator's lifespan, and, on a not so good note, this can also help to mask the symptoms of an insufficient alternator by smoothing these spikes that also cause the more obvious signs of a weak charging system, like dimming headlights when the bass hits.

-Reduce propagation delays in current supply for brief, spiked demands by the amplifier from the amplifier, and response to this by the electrical system. Amplifiers have to provide a very dynamic and quick response many times. A capacitor can assist in this if the rest of the charging system is up to par.

A capacitor will NOT:

-make your system magically sound 10 times better.Many people believe that a capacitor adds NO real benefit to an audio system, and this is why you never see before and after demonstrations, or factory capacitor company vehicles at car shows.

-Replace the need for a larger, high-output alternator and/or a deep-cycle battery or batteries.

If your electrical system is inadequate, the ONLY way to fix this, and again I repeat, the ONLY WAY to fix this, is to replace the alternator if your voltage rails are sagging to below 12 volts while the car is running. This is the SOLE source of electrical current for your car when the motor is running. The car's battery is in parallel with the alternator, and while the battery will help to stablize voltage at 12VDC, the alternator puts out a higher voltage, and if your voltage rails are dropping to 12 volts, you're already overdrawing the alternator's capacities, and if your voltage rails sag to below 12 volts then you're also going beyond the abilities of the battery or batteries to stablize your voltages. Both of these symptoms will result in battery and alternator damage.

A capacitor only masks these symptoms, in much the same way as regulating voltage to your headlights so they won't dim as bass hits, when voltages can fluctuate between 14.4VDC and 12VDC.

When the motor is turned off, the battery then becomes your source of electricity.

When the battery is run down, and when the capacitor(s) is/are depleted, the alternator has to work even harder in order to supply current to the car, the audio system, and also to recharge the capacitor(s) (which deplete more quickly) than they recharge) as well as recharge the car's battery(ies).

If you plan to use the audio system for prolonged periods at high volumes with the car turned off (such as for SPL events) you'll want to use isolated deep cycle batteries dedicated to the audio system to avoid damage to the batteries, and damage to the speakers and equipment from clipping.

So by adding a capacitor to try taking the place of a high-output alternator, you are actually causing more work for your alternator, and causing even more damage to that stock alternator.

A capacitor does have it's uses, but it is not a magical fix for a lacking electrical system.

Another item I'd like to touch on is the more recent advent of the high capacity capacitors (25, 50, 100+ Farad capacitors) and so-called "BattCaps."

These types of capacitors have extremely high ESR values which makes them very bad choices for the uses mentioned above. They are usually carbon-film based capacitors in order to get such high values, as opposed to the much lower ESR electrolytic capacitors you tend to find in teh 20 volt 1Fd type cylinder style units.

End result is avoid anything like the 100Fd capacitors like a plague.
 
Wow, you get very testy when someone simply and honestly replies to statements that you've made for discussion. And from your quotes in your sig, I think you may have a superiority complex and think you know better than everyone.
But since you post your thoughts on the internet, I guess I shouldn't believe what you say either huh? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Seriously though, No, I'm sorry I don't have a dual trace o-scope on hand to test all this. Do you? If so, can you post your findings for better comparison? Thanks.
Yes, I clearly have a superiority complex...but when you're clearly this superior it isn't that complex...

If you think this is "testy" you've got a bit to figure out still.

You've also completely missed the whole point of the argument, that is, if everything else is working correctly, the cap will have no beneficial effects and definitely not ones that would be audible. Let's think about this for a couple of shakes in a logical manner. If caps had a measurable and clearly audible benefit (rather then being the useless pieces of ballast that they are), why would the marketing departments at all the companies selling them fail to even mention that in the marketing? Telling people that it would actually filter out voltage ripple and make their system sound better would be much better marketing than what they have now. Why don't they claim that? Probably because it simply isn't true, not that there are any truths in their marketing, but at least this one is more plausible. In fact, you're the first person I've heard claim audible benefits to adding a cap. Wow, your ears must be amazing...either that or the placebo effect is strong in you...

And BTW, everything that you attribute to a cap above is done and done better by a good battery.

 
I have had caps and currently don't use them anymore.

I have also tested it with and with out in the same install in the same day and never noticed any difference in sound.

So I don't believe it helps, you should have been fine with the kinteks, alty and big 3. No need for a cap. If you think it sounds better, that is because you have read someones post to where you believe it and took it too heart and got in your car and told yourself, shit that guy is right, I can hear a difference now. Caps should be in all SQ type cars.

Rolls eyes.

 
Idunno, when I consider AC ripple effects on my amps, I first consider that the power from my alternator be running to a pair of batteries, and my hardware is hooked up to the batteries, not the alternator. So why the **** do I need a cap? Batteries provide the same type of filtering.

 
Everytime I'm workin on designin a system for someone we're getting through it to the end, and we've got almost everything figured out, and then I hear, 'and what kind of capacitor would you recommend?'

Fvcking Facepalm.

 
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