Can you really hear the difference between amps?

[2Tone 10+ year member]

That's a very good question.
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Have you not read anything in this thread? What you said makes no sense. Your experiment by switching out amps is in no way justified because of a billion factors, so saying one amp has 'better sq' than the other just by swapping it makes no sense. Last time I checked, amplifiers AMPLIFY the sound. So in reality, the signal from the source should only be AMPLIFIED to the speakers. THD, S/N ratio, or other specifications are not generally audible, so you shouldn't/can't hear the difference. The difference you heard is for other reasons, but NOT because one amp has 'better sq' than the other.

theres so much information just on this one thread, i dont know where to start... i couldnt try to prove it wrong if i wanted too...

 

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

so why do people like butler amps so much? and other brands for that matter. why not just run pyramid? im not getting it bro, why do all the amps i ever had sound different? i really am trying to get it but my ears wont let me.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

so why do people like butler amps so much? and other brands for that matter. why not just run pyramid? im not getting it bro, why do all the amps i ever had sound different? i really am trying to get it but my ears wont let me.

Superior build quality? More closely monitored quality control? Better customer service/product support after the purchase?

Have you ever done an ABX test where you compare one amp, then the other, and then a randomly selected one without actually seeing the amp that's being used?

 

[kmanian 5,000+ posts]

The non-professional mobile audio type will never do a test or install that can illustrate squeaks point. I do totally agree with him, and the science is totally correct, trust me he schooled me already on this very same subject. What I have come to the conclusion of is that the difference between amps that have very similar specs is their ability to pass the signal from the inputs through to the output with out changing it except for amplifying the signal. The warmth, harshness, brightness ... is all modification of the origional signal. which in true SQ is very bad. In general the better (more expensive) amps don't degrade the signal as much as lesser amps.

Just my thoughts.

 

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

no havent done one of those tests, all i know is i have had amps and then decided to go with something different and no matter how much i played with the adjustments it never got the same sound as the amp i had before. sometimes it works out for the better and sometimes it doesnt. is there a difference in quality of components used to build these amps? i know the internals on amps are all different similar to your statement on tv's. so if different components or quality of components used in an amplifier should then inturn give you different sound correct?

 

[Rich B 5,000+ posts]

so why do people like butler amps so much? and other brands for that matter. why not just run pyramid? im not getting it bro, why do all the amps i ever had sound different? i really am trying to get it but my ears wont let me.

Butler amps are tube amps.

Tubes act somewhat as an EQ, by emphasizing the midrange and rolling off the top frequencies.

 

[mokedaddy 5,000+ posts]

no havent done one of those tests, all i know is i have had amps and then decided to go with something different and no matter how much i played with the adjustments it never got the same sound as the amp i had before. sometimes it works out for the better and sometimes it doesnt. is there a difference in quality of components used to build these amps? i know the internals on amps are all different similar to your statement on tv's. so if different components or quality of components used in an amplifier should then inturn give you different sound correct?

If these things change any of the parameters that squeak has mentioned than yes it is going to sound different. Nobody is disputing the fact that amps can sound different.

 

[oldschool4me 10+ year member]

i was under the impression that the signal recieved in all components is altered in some way by the component which gives us the devices characteristics. even in quality amps seems that some seem to give better low to mid freq and some seem to lack lower and some seem more schrill in sound or maybe have a tin can sound to them so to speak. which is where we get different sounding amps? maybe? i think that better amp companies also have a smaller error tollerance on the equipment than the cheaper amp companies. i do appriciate you guys helping me understand this. i know your not saying pyramid is same as zapco etc. but closely matched amps in quality. i just think that some amps sound different and some are too close to hear the difference but most have different characteristics (sound).

 

[spark plugs. 10+ year member]

****...squeak and jim mad this thread AWESOME.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

Butler amps are tube amps.
Tubes act somewhat as an EQ, by emphasizing the midrange and rolling off the top frequencies.

A good design will not have any rolloff on the top end, at least mine don't //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

It's all in the output transformers...

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

i was under the impression that the signal recieved in all components is altered in some way by the component which gives us the devices characteristics.

Your impression is somewhat right, but your conclusion is wrong.

The amplifier isn't perfect. It might add a small, measurable amount of distortion to the signal. It might have a small, measurable amount of noise.

The questions are 1) what parameters of an amplifier's performance affect the sound, and 2) what difference in level of these parameters must be present to affect the sound.

Can you hear a difference between 1% THD+N and .02% THD+N with music ? The answer as demonstrated through scientific testing thus far has indicated that no, you can not hear a difference. Is the signal altered from the original ? Yes, it is. But it was not altered to a point that the it caused an audible change in sound.

In order for two amplifiers to sound different there must be an audible and measurable difference in the power, frequency response, distortion, noise or gain. If you heard a difference, you will be able to measure a significant difference in one of those parameters. If you measure two amplifiers and those parameters measure within inaudible tolerances then the amplifiers will be audibly indistinguishable regardless of the design of the amplifier, the parts used, the brand name, etc. Majority of amplifiers will fall into this later category. When tested in an environment where the variables are properly isolated (proper power and gain matching, elimination of psychoacoustic effects, etc) they will not impart a significant enough change in the previously mentioned parameters to audibly affect the sound.

even in quality amps seems that some seem to give better low to mid freq and some seem to lack lower and some seem more schrill in sound or maybe have a tin can sound to them so to speak. which is where we get different sounding amps? maybe?

This goes back to proper isolation of variables. As I've said previously, I've yet to see an amateur amplifier comparison conducted in such a way as to make the results valid. The differences heard were very likely due to either differences in setup, power or psychoacoustic effects.

Lets just assume for a second though that one amplifier had a significant (audible) frequency response anomaly in the midrange. You could very easily add a basic equalizer to the system (if it didn't already have one, since most even midlevel HU's have decent EQ's built in) to either 1) smooth the frequency response of the amplifier back to flat or 2) adjust the frequency response of any other amplifier to have the same frequency response anomaly. Both instances would again result in that amplifier being audibly indistinguishable from another amplifier with the same power, distortion and noise.

i just think that some amps sound different and some are too close to hear the difference but most have different characteristics (sound).

And that point of view is contradictory to the evidence, sorry to say.

Majority of amplifiers on the market have inaudible levels of distortion, flat frequency response over their intended bandwidth and inaudible levels of noise. That only leaves differences in power and user-set gain structure.

Do they all fall into that category ? No, absolutely not. But we know that IF one amp "sounds different", we can measure exactly what is causing that difference. And going back to my example of the amplifier with the frequency response anomaly.....maybe that is a Hi-Fi amplifier with a high price tag and the anomaly causes it to have a "warm" sound that many audiophiles love. Well, since we can directly attribute the change in sound to the frequency response, and we know that we can achieve that same "Hi-fi" sound with a less costly amplifier and simple equalizer ! Would you rather spend $1k for that Hi-Fi amp, or $500 for an amp+EQ and achieve the same results ?

Of course that's just a hypothetical example.......but it illustrates the point and shows some of the advantages to having this knowledge.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

A good design will not have any rolloff on the top end, at least mine don't //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
It's all in the output transformers...

Butler's tubes were only in the preamp section.

From what I hear, they were barely in the signal path at all.

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

Butler's tubes were only in the preamp section.
From what I hear, they were barely in the signal path at all.

Indeed.

Hell, in the one that my roommate had, the 6L6's were so lightly used that they weren't even in sockets so they could be easily replaced, they were directly soldered to the PCB //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif Getting 10+ years out of those isn't going to happen unless they're barely used.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Indeed.
Hell, in the one that my roommate had, the 6L6's were so lightly used that they weren't even in sockets so they could be easily replaced, they were directly soldered to the PCB //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif Getting 10+ years out of those isn't going to happen unless they're barely used.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard... No sockets FTL..

 

[its_bacon12 10+ year member]

i agree with pretty much most of whats being said but i dont know maybe its that you expect better sound with one amp than with another because of price difference..

only way to truly tell is blind testing. from my DEI to my coustic DR, the dr is noticably more dynamic. the dei is a little warmer sounding. the coustic has more impact and clearer high frequencies.

this is done only by switching the amps, everything else remained identical