Behringer A500 2x230rms amp and boston G512

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

Well if you want to compare used product why not a used behringer? a used one can be had for about $240, fine me a 1950 watt amplifier with less then 1%thd used or new that does close to the power wise (and I dont mean spec wise,proved power) 

compare apples to apples not apples to oranges...

So if I pay more for something it automatically makes it better then the cheaper product? all the time?

I got my QSC amps for 350 each shipped. They DO their rated power.

No, think about that last statement a little bit there (unless your TRYING to argue, which I think you are). More money does not equal a higher quality product, an example is Bose. A higher quality component takes more expensive materials and time to build (generally), and that translates into higher production costs which is passed on to the consumer.

It all depends on where passing the point of diminishing returns is for you in your budget/desires/setup. Spend accordingly.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

I like the saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"...

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

It all depends on where passing the point of diminishing returns is for you in your budget/desires/setup. Spend accordingly.

ECON? FTW!!!

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

ECON? FTW!!!

Naaa, I slept though my econ course last year, this came from common sense. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Naaa, I slept though my econ course last year, this came from common sense. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif

Well it is VERY common sense...

However, I took an econ class last quarter and the prof did 2 weeks on the Law of Diminishing Returns...

w00t on being a Finance Major...

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

Well it is VERY common sense...
However, I took an econ class last quarter and the prof did 2 weeks on the Law of Diminishing Returns...

w00t on being a Finance Major...

I don't recall my econ prof ever talking about diminishing returns, but then I didn't really pay attention...

Bah, Finance, the people who couldn't pass engineering... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

I don't recall my econ prof ever talking about diminishing returns, but then I didn't really pay attention...
Bah, Finance, the people who couldn't pass engineering... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

I would rather be one of those people who transfered than being completely miserable and hating life... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

I would rather be one of those people who transfered than being completely miserable and hating life... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Point well taken sir. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

I got my QSC amps for 350 each shipped. They DO their rated power.
No, think about that last statement a little bit there (unless your TRYING to argue, which I think you are). More money does not equal a higher quality product, an example is Bose. A higher quality component takes more expensive materials and time to build (generally), and that translates into higher production costs which is passed on to the consumer.

It all depends on where passing the point of diminishing returns is for you in your budget/desires/setup. Spend accordingly.

Do you know anyone who has tested the qsc amps? If so can I have a link, I am thinking of buying a second ep 2500 for a second 15 for my dedicated ht room but if the qsc really has more power I rather go that route.

Not trying to argue just trying to point out that just cause you pay more for something doesnt always make it better, like you explained. I thought the ep 2500 was a pos. I remember wanting a plate amp the dayton 1000 watt one but read online where they tested to do only 700 watts and I remember pming thylantyr asking him about the crown and qsc amp and told him that I doubt the the ep 2500 would even do 1000 watts... then someone tested the butt kicker amp that is suppose to do 2000 watts but it only did 700 watts with 14Thd and then I saw the ep 2500 did 1950 watts at 4 ohms bridged at less then 1% thd and plus after what thylantar told me I was sold...

In my application I got around 1800 watts with major voltage drop, not sure how much but right now im watching a movie and have the pc hooked up the upc and watching the voltage to see how low it drops (if it drops below 99 volts it will save it and ill post a screen shot)

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

re: amp power specs.

QSC RMX;

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/amps/rmx/rmx.htm

1/8 power pink noise at 4 ohms using 120 VAC

Proamp power specs are not rms test methodologies, 1/8 power pink noise

allows you to score higher numbers than an rms test method {ie, resistive load

with continuous sine wave}.

Second issue: 120VAC. That's a second 'trick' to boost power levels. This assumes

a 'loss-less' home electrical install. Good luck! Any voltage sag causes a drop in power, up to 40% loss if you drop under 100VAC, unless the amp is a PFC design.

RMX2450 specs;

20hz - 20khz -> 1300w @ 8 ohms

1khz only -----> 1500w @ 8 ohms

1khz only -----> 2400w @ 4 ohms

Note: QSC won't rate max power other than 1khz frequency --- because

the amp won't meet that spec at low frequency. It will do less.

Technically, per QSC RMX specifications, to get 2400w bridged with a 4ohm load

you need;

A. 120VAC, no line sag.

B. 1khz frequency, anything less = less power

C. 1/8 power pink noise {non rms test method}

EP2500 was tested recently by Chuck on AVS. His test method was;

1. A variac to hold the AC line at 120VAC to see what the amp does vs. published specs. But public specs don't really indicate an rms test method - lol

2. 20hz test, the amp did about 2000w rms test method.

Chuck didn't do a line sag test but I estimated 1200w-1400w using 1% THD

and under 100VAC.

RMX2450 will be pretty close to what the EP2500 did.

Keep in mind, an amp that does less than advertised isn't really doing less

than advertised, technically people don't understand the 'tricky' published

specs.

Lets say the amp doesn't meet spec, so what... just judge the cost of the amp

and factor in what it really can do and see if it's worth it. What if the EP/RMX

did 1400w sine wave @ 20hz, that ok... what you need to do is figure out

if this is really enough power for your project.

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

There is more to it than just RAW power.

I seriously don't think anyone can look at the RMX and the EP and say they are the same thing. They are similar - because Behringer rips off others designs- but that is where the likeness stops.

I have seen EP2500s used. Run neck to neck vs the RMX2450 the QSC blows it away (MSL-3 rig, using Crest CA-12, Behringer, RMX2450, and PLX amps. The PLX and the Crest were neck and neck, they both had clear audible advantages over the RMX and all of them were leaps and bounds above the EP2500). It's noisier, has less drive, and is not reliable by any notion.

Yes, there are many of them out there that output full power and are amazing for the price, but a good percentage of them are not what they are supposed to be.

Say what you want, I am keeping with brands that are Road and Time tested for me QSC, Crest Audio, Crown, and Lab.Gruppen...

/thread

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

Yes, I have seen the tests of my amps. No I will NOT link them or send them to anyone, I gave my word that I wouldn't distribute them.

 

[1loudsuv 10+ year member]

Yes, I have seen the tests of my amps. No I will NOT link them or send them to anyone, I gave my word that I wouldn't distribute them.

LOL are they gonna send agents in black suits after you if you do post them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

B&w in what way was the ep noisier?

full range?

or the fan?

or pops and stuff?

full range I have no clue if its noisy and wouldnt doubt that it was. for the sub I dont notice any noise at all. I can put my hand on the cone and the cone is not even moving/making sound even with the gains at full.

the fan well it is a tad noisy, its the second noisiest equipment in my setup. but the ps3 is way noisier hands down. but if both are in a well ventilated area the ps3 is quieter. In my tv stand as soon as I close the door I cant even hear the ep going but the ps3 sounds like a dam hair drier some times.

Pops or huming I dont get that either.

ANYONE local can come check out my setup, ill demo it so they can judge for themselfs //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

LOL are they gonna send agents in black suits after you if you do post them //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

No, but it would involve me going back on my word and possibly putting someone that helped me out in a tight situation.

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

I seriously don't think anyone can look at the RMX and the EP and say they are the same thing. They are similar - because Behringer rips off others designs- but that is where the likeness stops.

Here's the data.

1. EP is an RMX clone. I bet if you look at both schematics, they are the same

circuit design. I briefly looked at EP1500 and it looked like the same circuit design

as RMX. I noticed they used different opamps in the small signal path which means nothing really.

2. EP has been tested by Chuck on AVS, the thread here;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=855865&page=3&pp=30

Bridge mode @ 8 ohms;

20hz, 0.016% THD -> 1336 watts

1khz, 0.022% THD -> 1299 watts

20khz, 0.33% THD -> 1162 watts

Bridge mode @ 4 ohms;

1khz, 0.04% THD -> 1952 watts

3. The EP and RMX amp guts are essentally the same.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proamps/Behringer_EP2500-1.jpg

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proamps/QSC_RMX2450-1.jpg

a. transformer appears to be the same size and size correlates to VA ratings,

ie smaller size = less watts, bigger size = more watts, same size = same watts.

b. same heatsink design and cooling - both amp will suffer the same thermal

issues.

c. appears to use similar capacitance on the power supply.

*/////////////////////*

The EP is a clone and it's performance will parallel RMX performance. There is

no hidden RMX 'secret weapon'. If Chuck tests an RMX2450, I'd expect similar

results as the EP2500 test.

.... but for sake of argument, lets say the RMX pulls a few more watts, lets

say it does 200w/ch more... big deal, you won't hear it. One guy on

AVS score them for $250 each, eight of them to drive eight subs. Pretty good

snag if you ask me. Who wants to pay >$600 street price for the RMX2450.

I'm not dissuading people from using QSC, but if you do buy the amps used

to get a better deal.

re: Road tested

Like I said, people in the pro sound business don't want Behringer and

people in HT audio don't operate their Behringer amps 'on the road', so the

issue is moot. The EP series has been 'home road tested' for years with no abnormal

issues different than Crown or QSC issues.