Are 8's the new 12's?

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I wasnt argueing with you. Chill out and realize that.
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif Some companies do add mass to the cone to change parameters.

Sorry if my post came across confrontational, it was unintentional. Im totally chill. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[Louisiana_CRX 5,000+ posts]

Seems like it. I highly doubt two 3510's can cause breathing difficulty over as wide a frequincy range as my Mag 15's. And I know that they wont sound as good or play as low.
DD makes their woofers for one note wonders. Nothing wrong with that but I've yet to hear a DD set up with tonal quality...in fact I've yet to see thoes words togather from anyone except DD fans.

. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

As I said you have never sat in my CRX //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I'm sure Chevyaudio will this spring at upcoming shows and verify this...I'm wanting to hear his truck...and I know his will be impressive as well //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I hate we are in the same competition class...but we seldom make the same shows anyway...As far as one note wonders...no one is even close to my street beat numbers same as bass race.....read my signature for how it works...30secs playing a store bought CD isn't a one hit wonder...You need to know a speaker before running your mouth about the unknown....I'm sure your speakers are decently loud...I'm just saying my two 10's can do the same...in a fraction of the room....

 

[ibanender 10+ year member]

lol at the anti eD avatar i made like 2 years ago //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

LOL at the fact that the one I'm using is the one I made years ago because there was another one floating around that looked horrible. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif

 

[bdawson72 5,000+ posts]

makes me wish that i wouldve done 3 8's instead of the 10's that i previously had...oh well time for the blowthrough and the 12's

 

[davidfre21 5,000+ posts]

LOL at the fact that the one I'm using is the one I made years ago because there was another one floating around that looked horrible. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif

you ripped mine off //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Yea i think all i did was use the paint brush tool to make my ring, u went the extra length and used the circle tool //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crap.gif.7f4dd41e3e9b23fbd170a1ee6f65cecc.gif . Atleast it got the point across though.

 

[ibanender 10+ year member]

Sure we could pick a sub line like the RE, at one end of the spectrum where Fs varies very little. Or we could pick a line at the other end of the spectrum, like the L5 series:
L5 8" Fs: 43.4

L5 10" Fs: 34.9

L5 12" Fs: 32.2

L5 15" Fs: 23.4

So a difference of 20hz from the 8 to the 15. That is most certainly a noticeable/audible amount. But that is beside the point, I didn't come here to debate the audibility of Fs differences, or the reasons why cone size changes Fs (where did I dispute any of that in this thread? I didnt)... I came here to dispute the comment that cone size has 'nothing to do with how low it goes'. Look at those Fs specs for the L5 and then tell me you back up that statement. If you do, well Im not sure we are gonna come to a meeting of the minds here. If you do not agree with that statement, what exactly are you debating here?

I already gave you 3 subs that have 2 hz difference in Fs, ranging from 8 to 12. Those have different cone sizes and not much difference. What are you trying to prove here? I already gave an example of why you are wrong.

I'm glad you picked the L5 as an example. Is the cone size of those different? Yes. Know what else is different? How about the motor. The 8 is a 40 oz motor, the 10 and 12 are a 77 oz motor, and the 15 is a 114 oz motor. That also leads me to believe the 8 may have a 2" or 2.5" coil while the others have a 3" coil. Just because THAT line of subs (which aren't all the same anyway) have drastically different Fs's doesn't mean ALL subs are like that. In the CompVR line, the 8 and 10 are close but the 12 is a HUGE jump in Fs and the 15 is close to the 12. Does that mean ALL 12's and 15's will destroy 10's in low end?

You can come up with all the lines of subs you want that are 20 hz apart, but the fact that there is even 1 line that isn't far apart proves the point that cone size does not determine Fs or its ability to play low.

FYI, Kicker isn't known for designing subs that play low in anything less than a HUGE box, ever.

 

[ibanender 10+ year member]

Sure, we could also cut holes in the 15" sub's cone until it has the same radiating surface as the 8"... so what? All Ive said all along is as cone size increases (for a given sub), Fs lowers. F3 of the enclosure is proportional to the Fs, so size does factor in. Adding weights to the subs to artificially change their Mms really doesn't change my point.

And what happens when you put a stiffer spider on it? The Fs goes up. Did the mass change? Not likely. Did the cone size change? No. So how does the bigger cone make the Fs go down when its controlled by the suspension stiffness?

 

[ibanender 10+ year member]

As I said you have never sat in my CRX //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I'm sure Chevyaudio will this spring at upcoming shows and verify this...I'm wanting to hear his truck...and I know his will be impressive as well //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I hate we are in the same competition class...but we seldom make the same shows anyway...As far as one note wonders...no one is even close to my street beat numbers same as bass race.....read my signature for how it works...30secs playing a store bought CD isn't a one hit wonder...You need to know a speaker before running your mouth about the unknown....I'm sure your speakers are decently loud...I'm just saying my two 10's can do the same...in a fraction of the room....

Mine's a one note wonder and it will still beat you in street beat or bass race, with a store bought CD. As a matter of fact, I've done bass boxing with it for 60 seconds on music. Moral of the story, you CAN have a one note wonder in bass race, as long you find a disc that plays your note, as I have.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I already gave you 3 subs that have 2 hz difference in Fs, ranging from 8 to 12. Those have different cone sizes and not much difference. What are you trying to prove here? I already gave an example of why you are wrong.

If you insist on using the RE example, 2hz is a change, audible or not. Im failing to see how that proves Im wrong that as the cone size changes, so does its low end extension. Sure, I'll give you that many times its a small difference, but even your examples show a difference.
You keep coming back to the why. When have I incorrectly (or otherwise) explained why? I have not. Ive simply stated the relationship between the cone size of corresponding subs, their Fs, and the -3db rolloff point. Its a direct relationship, there for everyone to see, undeniable. The WHY you want to keep coming back to, Ive never said. Guess what? I dont know. So instead of going off on trying to prove me wrong in something I never said, why not tell us WHY?

edit: I know its due to the stiffness/compliance of the suspension, but why would this affect actual ability to extend lower so long as the power and displacement potential were still there (just harder to reach). This is what I dont get in the why.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

And what happens when you put a stiffer spider on it? The Fs goes up. Did the mass change? Not likely. Did the cone size change? No. So how does the bigger cone make the Fs go down when its controlled by the suspension stiffness?

Again, changing one perameter in one theorectical sub does not disprove that as cone size goes up, Fs goes down. Ive yet to see any line of subs that did otherwise. Thats not to say some dont exist, maybe they do, but they certainly aren't the norm. So this only leads back to the why, again something I have not addressed here, yet you seem intent on proving me wrong about. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

I also forgot to mention, good catch on the different motors in L5 subs, Id forgotten that and obviously didnt consider it in my example.

 

[ibanender 10+ year member]

If you insist on using the RE example, 2hz is a change, audible or not. Im failing to see how that proves Im wrong that as the cone size changes, so does its low end extension. Sure, I'll give you that many times its a small difference, but even your examples show a difference.
You keep coming back to the why. When have I incorrectly (or otherwise) explained why? I have not. Ive simply stated the relationship between the cone size of corresponding subs, their Fs, and the -3db rolloff point. Its a direct relationship, there for everyone to see, undeniable. The WHY you want to keep coming back to, Ive never said. Guess what? I dont know. So instead of going off on trying to prove me wrong in something I never said, why not tell us WHY?

The difference is small, and the difference is large. You just don't get it do you? It has nothing to do with the fact that one is an 8 and the other is a 15. I've already explained 3 times how the suspension is a huge factor in the Fs and how easily the Fs can be changed based on that alone.

I'm quoting everything you say in my response, don't even try that "things I didnt say" crap. My guess is you have little real world experience with a lot of subs, but do spend a lot of time looking at mocked up graphs. So, let me put this in terms you can understand.

Go under Bass Box Pro, pick the RE RE8 and plot it using the "suggest" button on a sealed box. It will make a box with a Qtc of 0.707 (which is the "accepted" standard). The RE8 has an Fs of 22.8 hz. It will show an F3 point of 48.95 hz. Now plot an Image Dymanics ID15 D4v2 the same way. That is a 15" driver with a Fs of 21 hz (1 hz lower than the RE8 if you didnt catch on). It will show an F3 point of 49.09 hz. If cone size determines the F3 point, even with a Fs only 1 hz off, why does the 15 have an F3 point of 1 hz higher than the 8 which has an Fs of 1 hz lower?

NOW do you see how cone size has nothing to do with the F3 roll off, why the cone size does not determine the Fs, and why the Fs is not a direct relationship to how well it will play low?

 

[ibanender 10+ year member]

I also forgot to mention, good catch on the different motors in L5 subs, Id forgotten that and obviously didnt consider it in my example.

I think you are also forgetting that in all of these points you are attempting to make, you are neglecting the fact that in ALL lines of subs, very few have the same motor, coil, and suspension from the 8" to 15", or even 8" to 10" sometimes. Moreso than not, even between a 12 and 15 with the same coil and motor, they have different spiders to support the added MMS so they don't sag at rest.

 

[ibanender 10+ year member]

Again, changing one perameter in one theorectical sub does not disprove that as cone size goes up, Fs goes down.

Its not a theroetical sub. Don't believe me? Order a Fi BTL of any size, completely stock, which is 4 spiders. Then email Scott and order another one of the same size only with 6 spiders instead. Then tell me the Fs isn't different between the two subs.

 

[hoss 5,000+ posts]

The difference is small, and the difference is large. You just don't get it do you? It has nothing to do with the fact that one is an 8 and the other is a 15. I've already explained 3 times how the suspension is a huge factor in the Fs and how easily the Fs can be changed based on that alone.
I'm quoting everything you say in my response, don't even try that "things I didnt say" crap. My guess is you have little real world experience with a lot of subs, but do spend a lot of time looking at mocked up graphs. So, let me put this in terms you can understand.

Go under Bass Box Pro, pick the RE RE8 and plot it using the "suggest" button on a sealed box. It will make a box with a Qtc of 0.707 (which is the "accepted" standard). The RE8 has an Fs of 22.8 hz. It will show an F3 point of 48.95 hz. Now plot an Image Dymanics ID15 D4v2 the same way. That is a 15" driver with a Fs of 21 hz (1 hz lower than the RE8 if you didnt catch on). It will show an F3 point of 49.09 hz. If cone size determines the F3 point, even with a Fs only 1 hz off, why does the 15 have an F3 point of 1 hz higher than the 8 which has an Fs of 1 hz lower?

NOW do you see how cone size has nothing to do with the F3 roll off, why the cone size does not determine the Fs, and why the Fs is not a direct relationship to how well it will play low?

but, but... the RE has a smaller cone. how can it have a lower F3...

 

[NoviceGuru]

okay i don't want to cause any more debate but i agree that the larger the sub the lower it well play. my reasoning?

mother nature......

when a small power full airstream is moving you hear high pitch whislte sound.

a small area of air moving.

now when there is large stream of air moving (such as a storm) you hear a much deep pithched sound.

a large area of area moving.

no if the area of air being moved had NOTHING to do with it why would i not hear the same sound.

.....that my friends is as technical as i get